#TouchingFace: Mockingjay, 15-21

Suzanne Collins's Mockingjay is a book! And we're reading it! On a book podcast! Who knew??

But because it's a book, there are certain conventions and cultural thought patterns that need to be followed in order for it to communicate well, and well... we have thoughts. Jess, Katy, and Julia discuss how to identify lazy writing, logical character development, expressing themes through character behavior (and not just names), and whether or not the author might have a subconscious face fetish. 

We volunteer as tribute--repeatedly. We're diving into the world of The Hunger Games: all 5 books, all 6 movies breaking down the world, the characters, the feelings, that weird thing with the pearl, our hatred for Gale, our love for Haymitch, & more. All leading up to the theatrical release of Sunrise On The Reaping this November. 

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Transcript

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Jessica Mary 0:36

Welcome to Booked All Night, the podcast where hot takes me craft notes and no one gets enough sleep. I'm Jess.

K. Leigh 0:42

I'm Katie. I'm Julia. I'm Maggie. Get ready for unhinged hot takes.

Jessica Mary 0:47

A whole lot of books, midnight giggles, and zero shade. Grab your blankets, booklets. It's time to get booked all night. Alright, so who is here? I'm Jess.

Julia 0:58

I'm Kaylee. I'm Julia.

Jessica Mary 1:01

Tonight on Booked All Night, we're continuing our deep dive into Mocking Jay with a focus on chapters 15 through 21. Before you hit pause to avoid spoilers, I just want to remind you to visit bookedallnight.co to see our interview and reading schedule and join our Discord community where we host our milestone giveaways, and you can add your questions to our interviews for every guest we have. And now, if you haven't read up to or beyond Mocking Jade chapter 21, even though you've had like 20 years to do it, then now is the time to hit pause. You can come back later, we will be here, I promise. Here comes the recap, and the recap is two pages long. My god, yes. All's fair and vengeance and war, King Nuts Tomb, waiting for some crushing news. Hey, I know that song. That is not how you abbreviate microphone. Armed and Wounded, the cringiest speech to not get shot, getting shot on live TV. Great, more drugs. Hey, those are my drugs. You can't treat PTSD if you don't have PTSD. You two are hard to swatch. Please feel free to take this personally. Rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated. Bread and circuses. Everybody loves a wedding. It's hard to be a game maker on a budget. What spells victory better than dancing? PETA took time out of his crazy schedule to make a cake. He'd like to see you, hey. You're not very big or particularly pretty. Well, you are a piece of work, aren't you? Training or death? Two others, so I can do what I want. Joanna and Katniss, the next roommate sitcom. Yeah, well, we've all changed. Aw, at least Finnick's happy. Add someone else to the list of people Katniss knew since childhood but never thought of. You can't sit with us. Oh, you're sitting with us. No one saved me for me. Stop letting Gail kiss you. You missed the best part. Pita got yelled at and then yelled at himself. Everything screams in my dreams tonight. Simulated street combat. No one invited you to simulated street combat. Why are they giving you a gun? Squad 451 for the girl on fire. Thankfully, I have this map. Ladies and gentlemen, let the 76 Hunger Games begin. Whoops, we re-traumatized Joanna. As many young and attractive victors as possible. You'd better kill him. Hugs for Prim. It's your own fault for being so camera ready. PETA joins the squad. The best thing you can do for the cause is die. So she wants me dead now? No, there's not that she has mentioned. I don't know that I could shoot PETA. Don't poke the bear when he questions his sanity. Ally, friend, lover, victor, enemy, fiance, target, mutt, neighbor, hunter, tribute. Real or not real, shiny memories, and there goes Boggs. Unfit for command, transfer of prime security clearance to Soldier Everdeen. That's my emotional attack oily matter. Peter's got that look in his eye. Don't trust them, don't go back, kill PETA, do what you came to do. No, he gave it to me! So now that we're dead, what's our next move? Guess I'm in charge of keeping everyone alive again. Did President Snow get lip filler? A poor, unstable girl with a small talent with a bow and arrow, a message from the other side of the coin, seal anthem out, a light romp through the sewer. Guys, I really don't want to be in the sewer, real or not real, and catness. That's my recap.

Julia 4:09

You did great.

Jessica Mary 4:10

What a recap. What a recap.

Julia 4:13

There's a lot of Peter being annoying.

Jessica Mary 4:16

Yeah. I was like, I feel for you, man, but also I'm a little annoyed.

K. Leigh 4:20

I think and I realized this when I was listening to this part because I apparently zone out during listening to the audiobook. And I think it's because Mocking Jay is just not my favorite in the series. It's really hard to read, and not because of the content, just because I feel like everything's so shoved in.

Julia 4:42

That was something I said at the end of last pod. We finished up the pod with me being like, I don't care about the next seven chapters. It's like minimal excitement here.

Jessica Mary 4:55

It is weird, right? Because when we went to go make the schedule for recording this, I was like, oh, all of the books have 28 chapters. That's perfect. We'll do them all in seven chapter bursts. And now I'm getting to mocking Jay, and I'm like, all the books have 28 chapters. And like it's so squished in. Yeah, exactly. Like, how do we have all this time? I just read all this. All this happened in seven chapters, and it still didn't feel like a lot of things happened in seven chapters.

K. Leigh 5:23

Yeah. But a lot of things happened in seven chapters.

Jessica Mary 5:26

But a lot of things happened in seven chapters is correct. And like we've moved forward and we're now like getting to not the Danoux, but we're coming to the climax. We're coming to a part that I know none of us are looking forward to. And then we have to come out of the sewers and be sad about it. And then another thing that will be sad, and we'll have to be sad about that. But that's not until next week's episode. There was a lot of attempt to focus on character in this section. That like Katniss has to kind of come to PETA, and PETA obviously has to re find himself as well because he's been tortured and hijacked and everything else. And it focused a lot more on the humanity of the message of the series and like what is okay and what is justified in war and retaliation and such and such.

Julia 6:16

No, it really pissed me off.

Jessica Mary 6:18

Lots of things.

Julia 6:19

How long it took Hamish to say what would PETA do if roles were reversed. I was like, why wasn't that day freaking one? It was so infuriating to me that it took so long to get there. I just wanted to throw that out there. I know it was near the end of our chapter read, but god diggity dog, that was like, oh, someone finally said it that we shouldn't just kill this guy who couldn't control what happened to him and if this is not his fault. And like it made me so sad.

K. Leigh 6:53

And on that subject, yeah, the real and not real game when he's like screaming about like one of like the tortures, and he goes, real or not real, real or not real. And he's getting really mad because no one is like answering it's like dude, no one was there, like they can't answer that for you.

Jessica Mary 7:12

Yeah, that was hard to read. Yeah, that was hard to read. That was emotional. There's two parts connected to that. One is when he comes to the table and Joanna's like, We're real close now because our rooms were right next to each other, so we always heard each other screaming. And then when you learn what happened to the Avoxes, you one learned the name of the girl Avox, which is the first time that Katniss learns her name. And then you hear from PETA like they just kept chopping them into bits. And I'm like, this is like the most gory description. I mean, aside from Kato getting eaten by the mutts all night, I think this is one of the most gory descriptions we've had in this series.

Julia 7:53

I think the thing that bothered me the most about that was when he was like they kept asking them questions. I was like, you fuck. Like, oh that was I hated that so much. It made me so upset.

K. Leigh 8:07

And as much as you know, that made me upset, it's also like again, like Peter, they can't answer that for you. You know, they were not there, they don't know if what you're remembering is real or not real, only you can remember that, like just that part, right? You know, the torturous part and and all that stuff. And it's it's like I don't know, because that was like a little frustrating.

Julia 8:31

Who says like um that was real and then is like based on our intelligence, like that's probably real?

Jessica Mary 8:40

I think that was Boggs. That was like based on what I know, I believe that that was real. But to jump off of like where Katie's coming from, what annoyed me about that is that he got put out of the hospital period when he was clearly not ready to like rejoin the general population.

Intro 8:58

Right.

Jessica Mary 8:58

And you see that over and over. Like when he comes to they okay, so he makes the wedding cake for Finnick and Annie's wedding, which is adorable. And they're like, oh, maybe he's making some progress. And Hamish even describes him as like being in a trance while he was working on the cake, because it's just like muscle memory. Yeah. They're like, okay, maybe he's ready to go out and be with people. And so of all the tables they walk him up to, it's Katniss's, why? And of course he has a meltdown, like she gets up and leaves. She's very much not understanding, but at the same point, this man literally choked you out days ago. I don't understand the decision here. At this point in time, I don't understand the decision there. And then he freaks out when Deli yells at him, right? He starts kind of having like a golem speech back and forth, as Joanna describes it, where he's just arguing with himself and there's like good PETA, bad PITA. And then even while going through training, he's like knocking himself on the head with the gun when they when he's in there in the city and he's holding the gun. Like, he's clearly not even ready to be on camera, and I don't understand what point is going to be made if any of that footage comes out, right? Like, if you're trying to be like, oh, the victors are strong and these two are together, and the only footage you have is of PETA trying to kill her, like that's not gonna be good for the rebellion.

K. Leigh 10:30

Right, but that's also explained because if Coin can't trust Katniss, especially in a political race, then she's willing to sacrifice her.

Jessica Mary 10:42

Which is also ridiculous, right? She's like, I'm afraid my political opponent will be a 17-year-old girl.

Julia 10:50

Well, no, it's not her political opponent. She's saying that she has enough power to throw her support at someone. So it's not she's against Katniss, she's against whoever Katniss chooses.

Jessica Mary 11:00

And she's treated her so kindly up until now.

Julia 11:03

Exactly. So she's starting to like realize that. But the thing with PETA and Coin like throwing him into the mix is so cruel. Obviously, even to PETA, like could you imagine he gets better and finds out that he killed Katniss?

Intro 11:22

Yeah, right.

Julia 11:23

That's so messed up. Even you see how upset he is when he sees that he killed the he throws someone into a bomb at the end.

K. Leigh 11:31

Oh, right. Yeah, I was so doubt for that part.

Julia 11:35

It was like a really small moment, but he like really freaks out and he's like not gonna get off the blue sofa.

K. Leigh 11:41

Yeah.

Julia 11:41

I don't know why I would say that.

K. Leigh 11:43

But it was the soldier that was like named only in that part, yeah.

Julia 11:48

Yeah, Mitchell or Micah or anyway, something like that.

K. Leigh 11:53

So it wasn't someone we were connected to, yeah.

Julia 11:55

Yeah, but at the same time, I feel like it it's easier to kill Katniss without PETA there. Like, I don't know. To me, her plan of killing Katniss through PETA is so weak. Yeah, you know?

K. Leigh 12:10

I agree.

Julia 12:11

Or is it like Katniss might die because she's so worried about PETA?

K. Leigh 12:16

No, I think it's because PETA is so unstable and doesn't know if he trusts Katniss or not. So it could be an added accident.

Jessica Mary 12:27

Yeah, it was it was an accident. His hands just fell across her throat by accident. Like oops, I fell and I choked her to death.

K. Leigh 12:36

Well, I mean, by accident, as in he relapsed and decided to go after Katniss because he thought she was a mutt.

Jessica Mary 12:43

Yeah, no, I I know. Yeah, I just mean like how would you spin that when there are constantly cameras on her? Like when they're going through this city, which we'll talk about more at the end, because I do want to start with the collapsing of the nut, and I'm not gonna laugh about it like a 12-year-old, but I am. That you know, she's live. It's no longer a feed that they're recording and then doctoring, she's on a live feed.

Julia 13:08

My favorite part in that is when Katniss wakes up and Joanna goes, calm down, you're fine.

Jessica Mary 13:14

Like, oh, those are mine, shut the fuck up.

Julia 13:17

Yeah, she's like, they turned off my morphine drip.

K. Leigh 13:21

They didn't want her in a public place, but then they put her in a public place to do the live feed, and then she's sitting there like talking, and then of course, like she's threatened and gets shot, and it's just like, well, why did you have her in a public place?

Jessica Mary 13:35

We had like almost this exact discussion last week where we were like, You want her to be safe, but you're sending her to the front lines in District 2, and you're putting her on a live feed so everybody knows that she's in district two. Yeah, this is the dumbest shit you've done. And then we have this whole conversation where Gail is just like, We watched kids burn to death, so I don't care if children burn to death inside the nut, and they execute his plan to cause the avalanche and it closes a lot of things. And I liked the juxtaposition of this with the memory of her father in the mines. I thought that was a really good storytelling moment because you come back and she's like, Oh my god, it's why she's always freaked out about being underground, because there were mining collapses as a kid, of course, one took her father. And at the end of that, like the statement of like, what did we just do is so much more powerful when you compare it to her experience with it. And like so much more monstrous knowing that Gail's father also died that way.

Julia 14:41

Yeah. And he's willing to do that to other people.

Jessica Mary 14:45

Yeah. We also last week had uh Julia had sent me this Tumblr post, and it was all about how because Gail is so angry about everything, it makes him so easy to manipulate. And so, like, if coin comes around and she's like, Yeah, blow that shit up, he's like, Yeah, blow that shit up.

K. Leigh 15:03

Right. That's a good point.

Jessica Mary 15:05

Yeah, and I think this is a really perfect scene of that where he's like, Well, they bombed our district to the ground. And like, it doesn't matter that there's innocent people in there. It doesn't matter that there's people that might have been like coerced into going in there or that there's children in there. He's just like, no, screw it, they're gone.

Julia 15:21

I don't think there was kids in there though. It seemed all like government workers, right? I thought a military operation.

Jessica Mary 15:28

I was under the impression that like district two completely as the district had retreated into the nut. I think there was children, yeah.

Julia 15:37

I thought it was like the military operations all happened in the mountain, and then there was like the town around it, was kind of what I was picturing.

Jessica Mary 15:46

I thought like people from the town had retreated into the nut. And so there's like people that were just trying to stay out of the conflict, and he's like, No, we're gonna bring a mountain down on you. But they do leave the train tunnels open, and that's where they come out, and this was the cringiest speech. Was anybody else just like reading her talking to this guy where he's like, give me a reason not to shoot you? And she's like, There's not, there's no reason not to shoot me, but I'm done being the capital's slave. That's what you want to do when a man is holding a gun to your head, by the way, is call him a slave of the government. It's it's not antagonizing at all.

Julia 16:30

It was so like I don't I like obviously I read so much, and there's so many like, I'm the chosen one, but I don't want to be the chosen one, and oh god. I read it being like, oh, is this the first time this happened? And then every book did this after this, because I hate this.

Intro 16:49

I I hate it.

Julia 16:50

You're actually important, just so you know. Your life actually unfortunately does matter more than some other people's. I I'm sorry. Like, I don't know.

Jessica Mary 17:01

In this scenario, in this scenario, I would say Katniss's life is very important. I don't know that I would make the argument that it's more important than others.

Julia 17:13

That's fair.

Jessica Mary 17:14

But like an entire rebellion kind of rests on her shoulders of just being alive. And she's like, hey, you got a gun? Fuck you. What what are you gonna do with it? Shoot me?

K. Leigh 17:26

Uh I mean, she kind of has a point, like, there really is no reason not to shoot her, right? And so, like, that I've kind of felt is like honest because uh listen, if someone's gonna shoot you, if they have like, I'm definitely gonna do it, no matter what you say, they're gonna do it, right? Very true. And so it's just like, give me one reason I shouldn't shoot you. And it's just like, well, you're going to anyway, so there's really no reason.

Jessica Mary 17:52

Like, yeah, can I not waste my time thinking up reasons? Could you just do it or not?

Julia 17:57

Yeah, she's not quick like PETA to come up with an answer. She's like, Well, I guess I'll just be honest. I'm not smart enough to lie to you.

Jessica Mary 18:06

Like, of all the things that she could have said, and she could have been like, listen, we can you know, the capital is the enemy. And we could have started there. I am not the enemy. I want the districts to be free. But no, we start with I can't. That's the problem, isn't it? Like, God, I just want to punch you in the throat sometimes when you talk.

Julia 18:27

It was giving so much like high school writing, junior high writing. You know what I mean? Like a junior high person is gonna write a story, and this is what they would write that protagonist to say. It was not as um refined as the rest of her work. It was funny.

Jessica Mary 18:47

Yeah, I see this particular line about a lot of kid lit, so like YA and down the list. Sometimes it feels like the author is writing at their target audience and not for the target audience. And that's what like this section felt like that they were like, we have to drop the language down, and we have to bring it on to how like what we think a teen should be reading as opposed to what a teen would be saying or what a teen would be feeling in this moment. She has such an attitude by the end of this speech, and she's like, Yeah, down but the capital, what then she gets shot anyway, and I'm like, you kind of deserved it.

K. Leigh 19:24

Yeah, and it's by a different person. And my feeling was, why is she in public doing this when there's capital spies, there's people who are on the capital side, there's people who just don't like her, you know? I don't get it.

Jessica Mary 19:39

Sometimes Katniss reminds me of a toddler in that they need to learn the lesson on their own, right? If you're like, hey, that pot is hot, don't touch it. And then Katniss is like, fuck you, I'll touch whatever I want. And she's like, ow, it burns.

Julia 19:54

Why but then she does it four more times.

Jessica Mary 19:57

I know.

Julia 19:58

So sometimes once is not enough. But then there's the enablers around her. Also, they're like, she's very adamant about touching the hot stove.

Jessica Mary 20:10

She really is, and especially when you tell her not to touch the hot stove.

Julia 20:14

But we should keep her in the kitchen.

Jessica Mary 20:16

Yes.

Julia 20:17

Next to the hot stove.

Jessica Mary 20:18

Absolutely.

Julia 20:20

And then watch. Anyway.

Jessica Mary 20:25

Anyway, she wakes up in the hospital and Joanna is like, oh good, you're awake, and just takes her her morphling drip and sticks it in hers. And she's like, they stopped mine, so I've just been taking yours.

Julia 20:36

I did really love that they became roommates, and I wish that had been a longer thing.

Jessica Mary 20:42

Yeah, I feel like Joanna has a lot of cynicism to impart on Katniss. Because Katniss kind of has this real weird kind of dream view of the world, especially as it comes to PETA, where she's like, well, he's changed. And it's like, yeah, bitch, he got tortured. So have you. You've changed too. Yeah, and that's what Joanna says, right? She's like, so have we all. We've all changed. Dumber. Yeah. Not all of us have changed for good. Katniss, you're a fucking moron.

Julia 21:12

But like I really wish that Joanna was also in this like mission at the end. I love Joanna so much. She's such an interesting character to me. Yeah. And it I don't like how she's not there. I think that would have been great.

Jessica Mary 21:28

Yeah. I like this on a storytelling level. I don't like this as something that I had to read. But when they go through the simulated combat and they go through the exam to be soldiers, and they specifically have that thing at the end, which is like, this is what we've determined is your weakness. So for Katniss, it's following orders. And so her orders are to get down, and she's like, I'm gonna do it and wait a minute. It's like the smartest she is in the book so far. Sweet.

Julia 21:52

The little glimmer of intelligence came through.

Jessica Mary 21:56

And so she does get down and somebody else takes it out. And they're like, cool, you're learning. Wonderful, you're going out. And then for Joanna, they're like, Okay, so we know that you were like drowned and electrocuted repeatedly. So we've decided to flood the arena where we hold these tests. Oh my god, you were triggered by that? Caller me surprised. And then she's back in the hospital and she's like, You better fucking kill him. And Cadiss is like, I swear I will. She's like, You swear on your family's life that you will kill him. She's like, I swear on my family's life. Life. And that'll come up as we finish the book.

Julia 22:36

The difference though in levels of test, it was almost like if you think about it, they made Katniss's test a little too easy to just get her out there. But she got tested, so you know, she was checked, and then they were like, we're gonna make Joanna's so triggering so she has nightmares for the rest of her life.

K. Leigh 22:58

Like, what the heck? Well, to be fair, if that actually happened while she was out in the field, she's a goner anyway.

Julia 23:05

It's true. She wouldn't have done well with that black.

Jessica Mary 23:09

Yeah, the oily zoom. That stuff's so gross. As a reader, I wonder this. I wonder why for Katniss they didn't make it being underground. Because the minute that Katniss got into 13, she was like, ugh, I need to be up and above, I need to be out, I need air, I can't survive down here, I can't thrive down here. And it was very obvious that being underground was making her uncomfortable. But in no moment in her test was she underground.

K. Leigh 23:35

Well, I feel because she has been thriving underground with little, you know, bits of being outside, not that she doesn't freak out, but like she can handle it better. Because we see her living down there, we see like when uh the emergency alert went off and they all had to go into like the deeper tunnels and stay there for a while. She didn't really have an issue.

Jessica Mary 23:59

That's fair. She did have some growth on that front.

K. Leigh 24:02

Yes. So like she may be afraid of it, but she can also like handle it better where she doesn't like freak out and cannot be managed. That's fair.

Julia 24:14

And like these tests are getting done underground anyways. So, you know, technically she is getting tested that constantly.

Jessica Mary 24:23

That's fair. That's fair. When you see the technology that District 13 has, I get angrier at District 13. You clearly had the technology to do something prior to this because you didn't build this simulated battle scenario arena overnight. So why didn't you help literally anybody prior to this moment? You people suck.

K. Leigh 24:48

I'm sure there were events and times that they could have started a rebellion, but maybe they were just waiting for that one definite spark, and that was Katniss with the berries and and everything. And I don't know.

Jessica Mary 25:04

How dare you not have answers from me?

K. Leigh 25:06

I mean, because if this happened at any other time, this whole book series would have been different, so. It's true.

Jessica Mary 25:12

I mean, it's a book, so almost like it's formulaic, and there's a way that you have to tell stories. Yeah. We have Annie's and Finnic's wedding, which causes some hollow baloo. One is when Plutarch first pitches it. He's like, What's happier than a wedding? And she's like, You can't fucking be serious right now. You mean for me and Pita to get married? He's like, Oh no, not you. And I was like, I would have punched him right in the throat. Just how dare you even float that idea in my brain. I liked this moment because we got to see like a little bit of other district culture, so like there was the woven net that was over top of them, and they like tie little knots together, and I thought that was really cute. And I'm like, that's sweet, because we know in district 12 they have a toasting, and like it's just not the same if you don't have a toasting and other things like that.

Julia 26:04

I really liked how Plutarch was like, no, expense is too much, and Coin was like, excuse me, like, oh, that was so funny. The flowers, and it has to be amazing, like capital vibes, and yeah.

Jessica Mary 26:22

Coin was like, excuse me, no, there very much is a budget, and it is much lower than you were thinking.

Julia 26:27

So I want to talk about when Pita and Katniss have that conversation after Hamich goes and sends her in there.

Jessica Mary 26:36

Yeah, that's awkward as hell, and then heart-wrenching.

Julia 26:41

My favorite line in this whole thing, favorite as in enraging, is when she's like mad at him again, and uh Pita asks if she kissed Gail, and she oh god, it still pisses me off. He's not a bad kisser either.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

Young lady, what is wrong with you? Why would you say that to him? That's so mean.

Jessica Mary 27:09

First off, it's so mean. Second off, she gets called out for it later, but genuinely it feels like she just antagonizes him over and over and over again every time she sees him. She's like, Yeah, I kissed Gail. What the fuck are you gonna do about it?

Julia 27:24

Yeah, like this is what I mean with like, why did no one say what would Pita do if things were reversed then? Like Hamish was in her head in that moment.

K. Leigh 27:37

But will she have listened?

Jessica Mary 27:40

I think so. Katniss, listen, what?

Julia 27:43

I I don't know. I think she would have maybe heard it. Because even when Hamish says it later, she's in a fit of rage. And then it like snaps her out of it. She's like, wait a second, I'm a monster. And it's like, yeah.

Jessica Mary 27:56

Yeah, you are. I think if Prim had told her around this time, that she would have listened. I think if Prim had come to her and been like, listen, he's you know hurting real bad, and he went through some shit, and he went through more shit than you've gone through, and you need to be nice to him. I think she would be like, Yes, Prim, you are correct. I need to be nice to him. But because it's coming from Hamich, who is loosely in authority over Katniss, it would fall on deaf ears if it happened at this point. But there's other, like, really wrenching fucking moments here. One, I laughed when he's like, Well, you're not particularly pretty. So, like that was amazing. And I was like, Good for you, man. Good for you. But toward the end of their conversation, their very awkward conversation, and did you love me? Everyone says I did. That's not an answer.

Julia 28:50

And it's like even he calls her out. Even he's smarter than her.

Jessica Mary 28:55

Yeah. When they rescued him, the exact line was I'm giddy with excitement.

Julia 29:02

Yeah, she was like running to him, so excited to like make out with him.

Jessica Mary 29:07

She was excited he was back. She's like, You're in one piece, and I know my feelings now, and then he choked her out, and I get it, that's a little confusing.

Julia 29:15

Well, she was like so overcome with love she didn't notice a literal predator in front of her.

Jessica Mary 29:21

Oh, yeah.

Julia 29:23

For someone who's a hunter, like she didn't recognize that because she loves him so much. Like, oh, girly bop.

Jessica Mary 29:31

My favorite part about that is she's like, I don't know what's on his face. Is it joy? Like, what would his face look like before choking you out? Is it desire? Yeah, is it desire? That's it. That's the one. I don't think either of those would be how I would describe his face, catnus. There's just moments where I'm just like, you're just not that bright. And moments? Yeah, moments. Plural.

K. Leigh 29:57

Plural. Like 90% of the series?

Jessica Mary 30:01

Yeah, kind of, actually. Like there's there's a lot of moments where I'm just like catness wide.

Julia 30:07

It's like accidental when she's smart.

K. Leigh 30:12

Or like something clicks into place because someone told her something, or she figured it out.

Julia 30:16

Yeah, she just stumbles into the right answer.

Jessica Mary 30:19

She just like I figured it out.

Julia 30:25

That was funny.

Jessica Mary 30:26

Oh my god. So at the end of that chapter, she's like, this conversation confirms that he knows that I'm a horrible person and I hate him for it. And I'm like, yeah.

Julia 30:38

Yeah, he calls her a real piece of work.

Jessica Mary 30:42

Yeah. And like he could have called you a lot of other things, and it would have been appropriate because you've kind of sucked as it comes to PETA this whole series.

Julia 30:53

It's just sad, too, that like you don't even have to love this guy, but he is still your friend.

Jessica Mary 30:59

Yeah.

Julia 31:00

Like uh the switch is so strong, and I really feel like Gail had a huge part in influencing her not being understanding with this.

Jessica Mary 31:15

I don't know if I've said this enough this series.

Julia 31:17

Okay, what are you gonna say?

Jessica Mary 31:19

Um, I hate Gail.

Julia 31:21

What?

Jessica Mary 31:22

You I just I just do.

Julia 31:25

Shocked at that.

Jessica Mary 31:25

I just do. I hate him so much, he is a manipulative piece of shit. And the way that he handles the aftermath of this conversation, where she's like, I'm a terrible person, and he's like, He's not seeing the real you. As your oldest friend, I can assure you that's not what's happening. And then he like kisses her on the forehead and leaps. And I'm like, stop fucking kissing Gail, stop letting him touch you, stop letting him do things. It is so infuriating because you just came from a guy you definitely love, and you couldn't tell him, yes, I loved you, even if it was in the past tense. And you immediately rebound to Gail, who also just bombed like a whole district himself.

Julia 32:12

Which she didn't love. She didn't like that he did that.

Jessica Mary 32:15

Right, and she was like, Oh my god, you're inhuman, and then like two chapters later, she's like, I could love Gail.

Julia 32:21

My friend Gail!

Jessica Mary 32:23

Ah cue. Here was the line that I highlighted from Gail where it was, it's the way he hates you, it's so familiar. I used to feel like that when I watched you kissing him on screen, only I knew I wasn't being entirely fair.

Julia 32:38

You're admitting to hating her while standing in front of her. That was so strange to me for him to say. Yeah. I agree. And for her to not get upset about that. She's like, PETA hates me right now, and you're telling me right now to my face that you hated me while I was maybe gonna die.

Jessica Mary 32:56

Yeah.

Julia 32:57

Right. Got it.

Jessica Mary 32:58

Again, I hate Gail. I don't know if I have made that abundantly clear. So then Joanna comes back running up after this, and she's like, You missed the best part at lunch. Deli yelled at PETA, and PETA yelled at himself.

Julia 33:12

I'm kind of confused why Joanna didn't stick up for PETA as much as she probably should have.

Jessica Mary 33:19

Or even stepped in in that moment. Like, I understand her inviting him to the table and being like, We had rooms across from each other, we're real bonded at this point. Fine. And she's like giving him a chance because she knows what he went through, and he knows what she went through. And then everybody else at the table is like, fuck you, dude. Like, yeah. You guys really know how to make a guy feel welcome.

Julia 33:44

But even like Joanna and Katniss together in their little roommate room, that would have been a good time for Joanna to take Katniss aside and be like, this is my experience. You need to be a little more understanding with him. Like it's weird that she never has his back. Yeah. Really.

Jessica Mary 34:02

It's weird that no one ever really seems to have his back, which is a point he himself brings up, where people are like, Why are you being mean to Finnick? Finnick saved your life. And he's like, Yeah, but he didn't save my life because he cares about me. He saved my life so that Katniss would go along with the plan. That's completely different. Yeah. Even my own family did not care about me.

Julia 34:22

Well, even this rescue to District 13, it wasn't for him. It was because Katniss needed her emotional support, PETA.

Jessica Mary 34:33

Yes. She's like, I need carbs. Why are my carbs strangling me? So then we have simulated street combat. Which pissed me off because they had the technology. I said it earlier, and it's like you couldn't come out and do anything to help the districts, but you have the power to make all of this underground. Okay, fuck you guys. And then all of that includes like landmines, snipers, crying children that lead you into an ambush, your squad leader gets hit by a mortar, and you have to carry on without orders, and I'm like, I can see Katniss doing this, right? But why were you putting any other victor through this? Particularly Joanna.

Julia 35:13

Doesn't every soldier go through it though? Yeah.

Jessica Mary 35:16

Yes. That's why I'm like, why would you put any of them through this, knowing that days, not weeks, days ago, they were experiencing trauma? Like, why would you even recommend them?

Julia 35:30

Well, it's a little you like you want to do it, so here, you take the test, you take the standardized test, we'll see how you do. I don't think there was an opportunity to have them not do it.

Jessica Mary 35:41

And then PETA comes to training.

Julia 35:43

He wasn't lifting any heavy sacks of flour.

Jessica Mary 35:46

Yeah, but he was like very obviously not ready to be out and about, and like the cafeteria proves that. This moment proves that. All they have to say is like, oh, but all of Pan M wants to know if PETA's okay.

Julia 35:58

And I'm like, Then put him in the kitchen and let him bake cakes.

Jessica Mary 36:01

Yes.

Julia 36:02

Give him a paintbrush and let him just be quiet in his happy place.

K. Leigh 36:07

Yeah. Or they could have done what they did with Katniss in the hospital and just filmed him. And he's like, hey everyone, I'm here in the hospital and I'm okay.

Jessica Mary 36:17

Yeah.

K. Leigh 36:18

Yeah.

Jessica Mary 36:19

It just feels like another thing that was negligent about Pita's well-being.

Julia 36:24

It's negligent about all of their well-being.

Jessica Mary 36:26

All of them, but especially Pita. Like every time he gets thrown into something, it's not his fault. It's not something he volunteered for. It's not because somebody cares about him to go get like we just talked about this. Like, they don't rescue him because they were like, oh, we gotta go rescue Pita. They rescued him because Katniss finally broke down about it.

K. Leigh 36:46

But again, this is a book, and because this is happening, we're we're supposed to see the similarities between coin and snow.

Jessica Mary 36:54

Yes. And that is a great point to bring up.

SPEAKER_04 36:58

That that this is a book?

Jessica Mary 37:00

That it's a book that we talk about on a book podcast. But also close to real life. When it comes to like writing villains and things, you almost always have a character that is quite the opposite of the main villain. But Snow and Coin are like the same thing.

K. Leigh 37:19

Two sides of the same coin.

Jessica Mary 37:21

Yeah.

Julia 37:24

But she's not supposed to be his opposite. Yes, she is.

Jessica Mary 37:29

Yeah, she's literally the opposing side.

Julia 37:32

I think coin's reason for being in this book is even when you're on the good side, quote unquote, that there are still people who will take advantage and can turn something that is good that you're fighting for into something bad, and you have to be careful of who you follow, even on the good side.

Jessica Mary 37:57

I mean, that's part of the message of the book and like the inclusion of just war theory. Like, is any side ever the good side? Is any side ever like because when you go to war for your country or for your cause, you think you are the good side. You are the good guys. So everybody's fighting in the capital is like we're the good guys, and President Snow is the good guy. And everybody fighting for the district is like President Coyne is the good guy. And so it's also about kind of sussing that out for yourself and being like, what is actually aligning with my morals? What is an actual good thing? Because war is never just. Right. Also, they named the squad 451, and I was like, come the fuck on.

Julia 38:40

Right? I was like, okay, okay, a little on the nose. That's cute. It's for it's for the oldies.

Jessica Mary 38:47

It is for the for the oldies. Like for anyone at home who might not know, 451 is the temperature at which paper burns. Girl on fire.

Julia 38:56

Oh, see, I was going with the book Fahrenheit 451.

Jessica Mary 39:00

Yes, that's why that's called Fahrenheit 451, because Fahrenheit 451. Yeah.

Julia 39:07

Interesting.

Jessica Mary 39:08

Interesting, yes. Yes. To be fair, uh, the book is in Fahrenheit and not Celsius, so you wouldn't have known, I guess. Yeah.

Julia 39:16

That is true. Yeah. There's that one thing.

Jessica Mary 39:19

I mean, we do have a Timmy's around here, so that's nice. Anywho, they suddenly have a map that Plutarch supposedly stole before he left the Capitol. Did anybody else feel like that was very convenient and was just like, this map that everyone knows? Yeah.

Julia 39:36

I don't know if you know this.

Jessica Mary 39:37

It's a book.

Julia 39:38

But we're reading a book.

Jessica Mary 39:39

But we're reading a book. Fine. On the storytelling aspect of that, I felt like it was retconning the fact that they had a map of the capital. Like it was an afterthought, and there was nothing prior to this to say that Plutarch had taken a map or had taken anything with him when he fled the Capitol. Because when we finally do see them, they're all on a hovercraft, and Katniss comes in with a needle, right? That's that's that scene. She's like, I'm gonna stab the everybody in the Capitol with a fucking syringe, and that's how we'll win this war. Nobody in there has luggage.

Julia 40:12

Yeah, but the Plutarch and stuff had maybe gotten organized beforehand. Who knows? You could have snuck that out before he popped on a little plane and got out of there. But the thing that I find strange is there are people in 13 that are grown ass men, like that have been training to be soldiers and fighters this whole time.

Jessica Mary 40:34

Yeah.

Julia 40:35

And you're telling me that you waited until Katniss was ready to take this little map out to go into the Capitol and do all the bomby stuff? That's what I'm saying. There's much more qualified people to do this.

Jessica Mary 40:49

It angered me, actually. Like on from a fighting standpoint, it felt like, oh, they have to have a way to get through the Capitol because no one here is gonna know how to get through the Capitol, and so Plutarch conveniently has a map.

Julia 41:02

Well, I even feel like they could have stolen it or something when they went and rescued Pita and Joanna.

Jessica Mary 41:08

I would have liked that too.

K. Leigh 41:10

Now there was people from District One from well before this, too, that went to 13, right? I don't think so. Like the Avoxes had heard about 13 and were trying to get there.

Jessica Mary 41:24

So Yeah, but we never see them in District 13.

K. Leigh 41:27

We Right, them, but do you think that there was people from District 1 that were able to get to 13?

Julia 41:34

It's never said. That's so strange. That it's never like, and then I talked to someone in five, and then I talked to someone in eight. That's actually weird. Because you'd think that as they're even liberating these other districts, and even the part where they're like, the food supplies finally coming back in, and we got to eat really good food, and everyone was really excited about it. It wasn't like and then some soldiers from eight showed up, and then some whatever are also coming to help out.

K. Leigh 42:06

Because I was gonna say, if there were people that made it to 13 from District One before all this went in, right, they could have been insulted about the Capitol and the layers for the soldiers to train better, you know.

Jessica Mary 42:21

This is what I'm saying. There were like a billion other ways that this information could have come to them rather than hey, don't forget this map that I've totally told you about. As you well know, I stole the map before I left. It just felt last minute.

Julia 42:36

Yeah. See, the two that would make the most sense. I'm just looking at the map of of Pan Am. Um three and six are right up against thirteen. And one is kind of at the other side. But I do hear you. Even Plutarch, like getting other people from the Capitol to 13, like there doesn't seem to be enough people from the Capitol in 13 for him to have worked and started a little rebellion in the Capitol, right?

K. Leigh 43:05

Unless they all died, or they're there in the Capitol working their magic there.

Julia 43:11

True, and they're not uh because they do say when they go get PETA that um people are gonna like spies are gonna be revealed and stuff. Yeah. I like how they make their little 451 group, and she's like, We're the sharpshooters, and I'm like, they gave you that name, so you felt important.

Jessica Mary 43:30

And they call them the Star Squad. I'm like, how many names do you need?

Julia 43:34

I also felt like there was no point in Finneck being there.

Jessica Mary 43:37

Oh no, there's a point in Finnick being there, and it's to rip our hearts out. So then Boggs and Katniss have this moment after Pita joins the squad, and she's like, so she wants me dead? And he's like, Well, she hasn't said that outright. I love Bogs so much. And I'm like, okay, so the implication here is that you guys have had that conversation, but you've been like wink wink nudge nudge about it.

Julia 44:02

Oh, I didn't catch it like that. I caught I caught it as Boggs just reading the room. Reading the room. Yeah.

Jessica Mary 44:08

To me, it felt like they'd had a conversation where it was like, it would be a shame if Katniss died.

Julia 44:15

I don't know. I don't think that Coin would have come out and said that to Boggs, given how Boggs feels about, but I could see him being in the room while she talks to maybe someone else about it. But regardless, obviously, we're just speculating.

Jessica Mary 44:27

Yeah. And then the best part is he just outright goes the And the president doesn't like you. She's never liked you.

SPEAKER_04 44:34

She's like, really? Yeah. Well, it's a surprise to me.

Jessica Mary 44:40

Uh and especially because she wanted immunity for the victors. She's like, oh, that was, you know, how dare you.

Julia 44:46

I didn't understand how that was like, especially because you wanted immunity for the victors. And I'm like, she had 10 other things that were much worse than that. But maybe that even plays to how evil Coin is, that she didn't even want to save them.

Jessica Mary 45:04

Yeah.

Julia 45:05

That she sees that as so bad to forgive uh and to look past this these people's um like pain.

Jessica Mary 45:13

It's canonical that Coin wanted Pita and not Katniss to be rescued from the arena.

Julia 45:20

Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't she say that to her face? Yeah, kinda. And we're stuck with you. We got you. Cool.

Jessica Mary 45:30

But then, like, why wouldn't they go rescue PETA sooner if that's the case? If that's the one that you want, then why didn't you immediately have some plan to go in and go get him if he is the one that you thought would be a better mouthpiece?

Julia 45:45

Agreed. That was a big plot hole. That it took waiting for Katniss to need him. Even like making plans to go get him would have made more sense. Yeah. Like we're trying so hard to come up with something to get him.

Jessica Mary 45:58

Yeah.

Julia 45:59

Okay. But I don't love how they were like, we're abandoning him. Just getting we're gonna go get him now. And it seemed too easy, too. Yeah. Seems like you could have just gone and gotten him at any point.

Jessica Mary 46:10

I think part of the reason that it seems too easy is because Pete has been.

SPEAKER_04 46:14

This is a book?

Jessica Mary 46:15

This is a book. Did you guys know we're reading a book on a book podcast? No, I think part of the reason that it's easy is because Pete has been hijacked. And so, like, yeah, you could take him because he's gonna kill her. So that's fine.

Julia 46:27

That's fair.

Jessica Mary 46:28

Um, and then we we have the first couple rounds of real or not real. And it is hard. Right? Because you gotta listen to how the Avoxes were tortured, and how, like, you know, I had to sit there and watch them get cut apart piece by piece, and they just kept asking questions, is this real or not real? And he like starts freaking out about it because nobody's answering him, as Katie had said earlier. Like, that was just very tough to read.

Intro 46:57

Yeah.

Jessica Mary 46:58

And then immediately after that, a bomb takes out Boggs and he transfers command to Katniss, and PETA attacks Katniss, and the last thing Boggs says is don't trust them, don't go back, kill Pita, do what you came to do.

Julia 47:09

I think that's just like a father figure moment.

K. Leigh 47:12

Could it also be the fact that he's like kinda losing his mind because of blood loss?

Jessica Mary 47:18

Maybe.

Julia 47:19

Like, cut your losses and go kill snow and kill yourself.

Jessica Mary 47:22

Yeah, that's get there faster. Yeah, get there faster. I feel like there are other messages that could have been said because this is like don't trust them, cool, okay. Uh, don't go back. Everybody wants to kill you there. That's what I heard from that statement.

Intro 47:36

Yeah.

Jessica Mary 47:38

Uh and then kill PETA, which she had already debated. Like, I don't know that I can do this.

Julia 47:43

Mm-hmm. Which everyone even is like, you're not gonna kill him.

Jessica Mary 47:47

Yeah. So yeah, everybody calls her out. They're like, no, you're not, you love him. Even if you don't know, the rest of us do.

Intro 47:53

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 47:54

And then both parties air things that they're all dead. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, Snow comes on and he's like, Oh, the rebel catness Everdeen is dead, and she was nothing more than a a silly little girl with a small talent for a bow and arrow, and then Coin interrupts that and comes in with her own eulogy, and then the steal anthem in it and it goes out.

Julia 48:16

I'm like Everything that Snow was saying about Katniss was so accurate.

K. Leigh 48:24

I agree with Snow.

Julia 48:26

Literally, I was like, I wonder if she's sitting there going, fair. Yeah. But then to have um even uh Coin and District 13 have this like whole montage, like ready? Yeah, that was interesting.

Jessica Mary 48:47

Right?

Julia 48:49

Okay. Oh just ready for when she dies.

Jessica Mary 48:53

Yes. For when, not if when she dies.

Julia 48:57

So fucked up. But also, like, didn't they not have communication with them still? Like you'd think their little holographic map the technology would reach.

Jessica Mary 49:10

And they could be like, hey, I'm not dead.

Julia 49:12

Yeah. I'm not dead yet. But they could also just be using that as a propaganda thing and still know that their squad is still alive.

K. Leigh 49:22

I think that's I think that's it.

Jessica Mary 49:24

Now I just have a mental picture of Katniss in a fucking wheelbarrow with a bunch of other corpses, and it's all your fault, Katie. You're welcome. Thank you. I was like, what? Monty Python. God damn it.

Julia 49:38

Well, there we go. Okay. Yeah.

Jessica Mary 49:40

God damn it. Uh yeah. And then the second in command, whatever her name was, Jackson or something. She's like, well, give me the hollow. Katniss has to be like, uh, can't.

Julia 49:57

I figured Boggs gave her the hollow because she was next to him. Yeah. And not for any other reason.

K. Leigh 50:05

No, I think there was a reason. I think that he knew that some of these people on the squad were either double agents or under coin's command to take Katniss out. Yeah.

Julia 50:22

But even like, okay, when PETA like shows up and they're like, you're not gonna kill PETA. And her response to that is, I speak up so the whole squad can hear me. It'd be just like shooting another of the Capitol's mutts.

Jessica Mary 50:40

Yeah, Katniss has a fondness for poking the bear when the bear is already traumatized and upset.

Julia 50:47

What is wrong with her?

Jessica Mary 50:48

I think if Katniss ran into that bear that got into like a pound of cocaine, that she would give it more cocaine.

Julia 50:54

Yeah. She'd probably take some.

Jessica Mary 50:56

Yeah, she'd be like, I love cocaine bear. Do not bring him into this. She'd be like, here you fucking go.

Julia 51:03

And then Gail, just so cash. Do you want me to kill him?

Jessica Mary 51:06

Yeah.

K. Leigh 51:08

Um just kidding. Yeah.

Jessica Mary 51:17

Katie, I know where you live. You better not be not kidding. It could be what team, whatever team you want to be, even if you are incredibly wrong, but that's a different I've said it from the beginning.

K. Leigh 51:29

Hashtag team solo catness.

Jessica Mary 51:32

Yeah.

Julia 51:33

Yeah. Before when you said that, hashtag team solo catnus, I thought of it more as like she doesn't need a man and blah blah blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_04 51:42

No, she just sucks and shouldn't be with anyone because of how awful she is.

K. Leigh 51:51

I agree, but also like I don't feel that she fully loves either of them, and I don't agree that she loves them at all. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think she's very conflicted about her feelings, and that she really doesn't fully love PETA, and she doesn't fully love Gail, and therefore it's okay. It's okay to like not feel that love for anyone and just be, you know, and just be mean you need to love yourself, yeah.

Jessica Mary 52:20

And and just be in your early 20s as the book series finishes, and just kind of like looking out and being like, huh, I finally don't have to worry about somebody trying to shoot me in the back of the head.

Julia 52:30

Yeah. Okay, something that kind of just popped into my mind, just thinking about the Gail looking at her, and do you want me to kill him? I feel like if this story was written now from a new adult perspective, but we aged the series up. Gail would be the I'll burn the world down for you.

Intro 52:53

Morally Gray, love interest.

Julia 52:57

I know you don't like love the series, uh Katie, but like in Avatar, like PETA would be the Tamlin and Gail would could could would be the resand, because it's like I would I would kill anyone for you. I would commit war crimes for you. And it's like the most romantic thing in the world, and all these girls just are obsessed with it.

K. Leigh 53:19

Which like I get. But PETA is better than Tamlin, though.

Julia 53:23

Let's oh no, no, no, for sure. I'm just saying, like, if it was written now with this genre, I could see the author twisting it that way to have Gail be the resanded burn the world for you.

Jessica Mary 53:36

So I feel like if you were gonna liken it to that series as it is, that Gail would be Tamlin. Because I can totally see Gail kidnapping Katniss and keeping her locked in a house so she can't go anywhere.

Julia 53:50

No, no, no. Yeah. No, I get that too. I'm just saying he's the one that would kill everyone for her. Yeah. And Pita's the one that's like, but we need to be the hero and rescue everyone.

Jessica Mary 54:02

Yes, and Book Tok would be like, oh my god, I love him so much.

Julia 54:05

Exactly. Book talk would be Team Gale.

Jessica Mary 54:08

BookTok would be choke me harder, Daddy.

Julia 54:11

That's not Team Gale, exactly. Oh wait, no, never mind. That was to Pita.

Jessica Mary 54:17

Oh, oh, oh, oh. Interesting.

Julia 54:22

Interesting. Interesting.

Jessica Mary 54:27

I need a moment. Hold on.

Julia 54:30

Well, now I'm conflicted more. Yes. Yes. You see?

K. Leigh 54:37

Uh-oh. It's hard to put these characters into Avatar because they're wait a second.

Julia 54:44

Okay, that would have it would have been a very different uh thing that the scientists were observing. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Anyway.

Jessica Mary 54:57

Anywho, we decide to go into the sewers.

Julia 55:00

Underground.

Jessica Mary 55:02

Which freaks are out. Yeah. By going to find the teenage wheat and turtles. Yeah, kind of, in a way. And Katniss finally has like a softer moment with PETA. Which is nice. It ends with like, you're still trying to protect me, real or not real? And she's like, real. Like, I fucking hate you right now. You tried to choke me out, but I still want you to be alive. Cool.

Julia 55:25

Brushes his hair back multiple times. Way too intimate for someone who hasn't touched someone in a while. You touch someone's face, that's the first thing you're gonna do. Touch their face. Got it.

Jessica Mary 55:38

Has anybody else noticed that like all intimate moments in this series have come with face touching? All of them. I trace my finger along his face. I I rub his I push his hair out of his face. I just put one hand on his face. He puts a hand on my face. Like every single time there is an intimate moment.

Julia 55:58

Maybe Suzanne has a weird kink.

Jessica Mary 56:02

Weird kink. I know it's not something I would have realized when these books came out. And if they came out now and they were spaced out, it's not something that I would realize. But reading them back to back has been like, Yeah. Are we touching face again? Again? Touching face.

SPEAKER_04 56:22

Touching face.

Jessica Mary 56:23

Hashtag touching face. And then there's the hissing sound, and it's just saying cat.

K. Leigh 56:33

Speaking of Avatar. Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Mary 56:38

Oh boy. Serial.

K. Leigh 56:42

Yeah. Don't be weak. I can't remember the character, but I know it's it's the uh surreal?

Jessica Mary 56:48

It's the surreal, yeah. Yeah. Serial. Yeah. Who just comes to spill the cereal. Sereal.

Julia 56:54

So sorry, I wanna just just go back just real quick. Okay, to before the black lava.

Outro 57:02

The emotional attack oil.

Julia 57:04

Yes. So it goes, all the streets are covered by surveillance cameras. I bet they set off the black wave manually when they saw us taping a propo. You've been walking around the Capitol for like three days at this point, and you're telling me right now that they finally saw you on camera?

Jessica Mary 57:27

We have this conversation about the Capitol surveillance state all the time because Katniss is always surprised that there are cameras everywhere.

Julia 57:39

Not even the soldiers thought about that. Yeah. It was like all of a sudden, oh yeah, there's cameras around. Yeah. Anyways.

K. Leigh 57:48

I mean, and not only have they been walking around the Capitol for three days, but Katniss has been in the Capitol before.

Jessica Mary 57:56

Yeah.

K. Leigh 57:57

Mm-hmm. Like, you didn't realize that because of your stay there? She realized that on her first stay there.

Jessica Mary 58:08

Because when she was in her room, she's like, I don't want to like be alone in my room because I feel like they're watching me, and that's why they go up to the rooftop.

Intro 58:14

Right. Yeah.

Jessica Mary 58:15

Like, you know. She knows. Yeah. You know. But she's dumb and she don't remember. I'll give her this. She's got a lot of head trauma because of the customer. That is true. Like every 10 chapters, she's got a concussion or has made the last concussion that much worse. So.

Julia 58:34

I mean, but it's everyone not noticing. Everyone not thinking about it. And then it's the caster is the one who's like, we would have triggered all the cameras. Oh, yeah, that's a thing, guys.

Jessica Mary 58:47

This is not the first time that I have wanted to reach into a book and strangle someone for like how frustratingly stupid they seem. Normally I feel that way about characters in romance books, so it's weird to feel that way about characters in a dystopia. But rude.

Intro 59:05

Just kidding.

Jessica Mary 59:07

Just kidding. But like part of the capital's character is it being a surveillance state. So yes, it is incredibly frustrating that not a single character was like, we should be on the lookout for cameras.

Julia 59:20

Or our little thing disables cameras as we're going. Yeah. Or freaking anything for any mention of a camera prior to that moment when being in the freaking capital. Yep. Unless there's so many cameras that they only check when there's like big moments happening. That was the other thing that I was thinking of.

Jessica Mary 59:40

I think I might have rather have seen them taking cameras out and then still getting caught on camera because of how many cameras there are.

K. Leigh 59:48

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That would make sense.

Jessica Mary 59:50

Yeah.

K. Leigh 59:51

Final thoughts, friends. Reading Mocking J is like a chore. Uh-huh.

Jessica Mary 59:56

Yeah, a little bit.

K. Leigh 59:57

And I can't wait to be done.

Jessica Mary 59:59

Well, good news. Next week we get to finish. And then we get to go into Ballad of Songbirds and Stakes, which I thought was like a chore reading.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:10

Oh, good. I'm so glad that you said that. Mm-hmm.

Jessica Mary 1:00:13

And neither of you have read it, so it'll be your first chore.

Julia 1:00:17

I am very excited for that. I don't know why this is so hard to read. And I was wondering if it was because I already know what's gonna happen, but I know the first two books better. Like I don't remember a lot in this book, but God. I don't care.

K. Leigh 1:00:34

And I remember not liking this book back when I read it the first time. Like I thought it was not the weakest of the three, but just it lost my interest. And I thought it would be better this time, but it's still losing my interest.

Jessica Mary 1:00:52

Yeah. I think this section was my least favorite section.

Julia 1:00:57

Yep, this one was rough.

Jessica Mary 1:00:59

I think the other sections were much stronger in their storytelling and in their voice and in their presentation.

Julia 1:01:06

Less big things happened in this section.

Jessica Mary 1:01:10

Yes, lots of very little minute could have been a paragraph. Lots of setup to go into this big battle so that we know that we're not just sending an untrained teenager into war, which you still kind of are, but whatever.

Intro 1:01:25

Yeah.

Jessica Mary 1:01:26

Yeah. But I know that the next section has a lot of emotion to it. Mm-hmm. And I know that the ending still leaves me conflicted all these years later because even having gone through this again and being like, I fucking hate Gail, and how dare you not love PETA, I am still team Katniss by her damn self.

K. Leigh 1:01:48

Yes. Yeah. I guess my final, final thought is also that it's a book. Is it a book? It's it's a book.

Jessica Mary 1:01:57

It's a book. It's a book. And books are flawed. Books are flawed. This is true. But I feel like it's very important, especially for those of us that are writers on the pod, to note what makes them flawed. Because plot holes. Yeah, the well, obviously. Plot at least they're at least they're not plot holes so big you can do it or drive a truck through 'em, right? But like that makes our writing better. And writing and reading and like publishing in general is so subjective that it's important to kind of put down your own idea and say that I didn't like this because, as opposed to just this part was boring or this book was boring, or I just wasn't into it. And like it's important to be able to identify those things so that you can pick up a book and like it next time or not like it next time, or whatever you are working on as a writer can be better.

Julia 1:02:46

For me, it's just the fact that she's not learning a lesson.

Jessica Mary 1:02:49

Yeah.

Julia 1:02:50

There's no progress in her personal development. Yeah.

K. Leigh 1:02:55

In a positive way. I think that was something I was gonna say, and I just decided not to, but like no, no, no, no, like that not not that exactly, but like I think the third one is my least favorite because we've had to deal with Katniss being dumb for so long.

Julia 1:03:13

Yeah.

K. Leigh 1:03:14

And she's still dumb.

Julia 1:03:16

Yeah. It would have been nice for her to figure it out. Exactly. Yeah.

Jessica Mary 1:03:20

Like, it's like, okay, girl, let's have a character arc. I feel like in this book especially, Katniss should have been a paranoid motherfucker. Everyone is out to get me. I can't trust anybody. By this point, everyone involved in her life has lied to her about something. Ex except for Pryn, right?

Julia 1:03:39

God, I would have hated I would have really hated reading that.

Jessica Mary 1:03:43

Why would she trust Gail after he bombs the nut? Why would she trust Pita after he choked her out? Why would she trust Hamish when he didn't include her in the rebellion plans? Why would she trust Joanna when she thought that Joanna had killed her? Even after finding out that like she cut the tracker out, she'd still be a little wary about it. So she has plenty of reasons to be like, get the fuck away from me. And she doesn't.

Julia 1:04:03

Yeah. Yeah, she kind of does the opposite. She trusts everyone else too much. Even when Boggs at the end is like, don't trust anyone. She's like, hmm, interesting, interesting point you're making. I'm gonna ignore it. Yeah. Second.

Jessica Mary 1:04:18

I have a rebuttal. There used to be a popular hashtag on a book blur, right? The book tumbler. And I don't see it used anymore, but it was too stupid to live. Interesting. It was like it was about characters that would, you know, repeatedly touch the hot doorknob and then be surprised that there was fire on the other side. And I feel that way about Katniss sometimes. Only sometimes? Yes. Sometimes she figures things out. Even by accident, but she does figure things out. Like she figured out that Peter was mad at her as soon as his hands were around her throat, right? Like she she got that point immediately.

Julia 1:04:53

Oh my god. Eventually, she had to open the door and see the fire first and be like, there's a fire.

K. Leigh 1:05:01

Yeah.

Julia 1:05:02

And then close it.

K. Leigh 1:05:03

I figured it out. I figured it out.

Julia 1:05:05

Figured it out.

Jessica Mary 1:05:06

Yeah, exactly.

Julia 1:05:10

I'm sad that she doesn't have Mark Rose.

Jessica Mary 1:05:13

Yeah.

Outro 1:05:14

That would have been nice. Thanks for staying up with us. Follow us on Instagram and threads at Booked All Night Pod. Drop a comment to let us know what you thought of today's show and join our Discord server for giveaways, excerpts, and more. It's still in the works, but we're aiming for 100 members. Catch our live author interviews on YouTube and leave a question for our guests on our Discord server. Check out our shop and website at bookedallnight.co. And if you're loving the chaos, don't forget to rate us five stars. Until next time, booklets, stay booked all night.