The Chosen One™ - Catching Fire, 8-14

Whose bright idea was it to make a teenage girl the symbol of an uprising against tyranny? 

Our deep dive into Suzanne Collins's Hunger Games series continues, with Jess and Julia tackling the literary path of Katniss's mid-Catching Fire character development, the sheer illogic of many tropes that YA fiction takes for granted, sooo many sad emojis over Haymitch, even more of that ongoing "just friends" frustration, and of course, much more. 

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Transcript

Booked All Night 0:04

Welcome to Booked All Night, the podcast where hot takes me craft notes and no one gets enough sleep. I'm Jess.

Intro 0:10

I'm Katie. I'm Julia. I'm Maggie. Get ready for Unhinged Hot Takes. A whole lot of books, midnight giggles, and zero shade.

Booked All Night 0:19

Grab your blankets, booklets, it's time to get booked all night. Welcome to Booked All Night. I'm Jess. I'm Julia. Tonight we are deep diving into Catching Fire chapters eight through fourteen. It has been 17 years, but just in case you're still avoiding spoilers, hit pause unless you have read up to or beyond chapter 14. Now, if you are ready, let's do a little recap because there was a lot in chapters 8 through 14. We started with Gail getting whipped. We'll have our own uprising with Blackjack and Hookers. We're running away! The hob is on fire. The Capitol starts to force Starve 12 with rotting food. The mocking jay is officially a rebellion symbol. District 13 might still exist. The fence is back on, the wedding gown photo shoot, the quarter quail, oh everybody's going back into the arena. A forced withdrawal for Hamish. They train even though they're not supposed to. The reaping is super short, they get no goodbyes. They watch Hamish's very heavily cut games, and my notes here are just crying emojis. Because I can't talk about any of that until we get to sunrise, but it is still very depressing. And so I am going to do my very level best to not get as many judgmental looks from Julia this evening. And then we end reflecting not on who our enemies will be in the arena, but who our teammates are, both in and out.

Julia 1:47

Alright. Do you want to do this like chronologically?

Booked All Night 1:52

As best I can, because I feel like so much of it is of that looking back, it has more importance, and knowing what comes next, it has more like, you know, the way literature works in a series kind of thing. But I do want to start with after Gail is whipped, and he's whipped pretty heavily, like his back is all cut up and and it's very, very gnarly, and Pita, Hamich, and Katniss all stand up for him. Katniss gets the whip across her eye. When they bring Gail to her mother, and we see Prim and her mother just kinda like a switch goes off, and they're like, It is time to be doctors, it's time to be healers, and so everybody out, everybody out of the way, we have a job to do. After all of that hecticness, Katniss is sitting with Gail and just kind of keeping him company, and then she just starts to feel his face, and she like runs her fingers along. She's like, I'm I'm having cause to touch him where I've never touched him before. And I'm like, girl, you do not have cause to touch him.

Julia 2:53

Have you heard of consent?

Booked All Night 2:54

Yeah, he is unconscious. He is bleeding out on your kitchen table, and you're just like, I love the way his cheeks feel in my fingers. It was really weird, and it gave me little mermaid vibes, and I'm going to explain that because I'm sure I'm getting lots of yeah, exactly. I can see the confusion.

Julia 3:14

No, I get it. I like picturing uh Ariel on the beach with Eric when she brushes his hair off of his forehead.

Booked All Night 3:21

Not over the Disney version, but in the original um Hans Christian Anderson version, she watches him for 100 nights, just watching his like the candle in his window go out. And so she's basically watching him like flick his light switch off at night for 100 nights. And that's what I felt like here. Like, you don't actually need to be watching him that closely. You definitely don't need to be feeling up his face and running your fingers like here's how his eyes look and and how the bone structure feels beneath me and his neck and this little clavicle I've never thought to just stick my fingers in and feel for like it was really fucking weird.

Julia 4:04

I don't think I thought it was as weird as you did, but I hear your perspective on that. For me, I got really stuck at what happened. Is this before or after?

Booked All Night 4:18

This is like right at the beginning of the section.

Julia 4:20

Like, because after that, not that that's not fucking like that is super weird touching someone's face, and like it's like I want to make a death mask of them or something. Like you know, just a lot of detail and like when she explained it and stuff, yeah, it came across as creepy. But then right after that, she thinks about Gail getting married, and her response is the hatred I feel for him for this phantom girl for everything is so real and immediate, it chokes me.

Booked All Night 4:54

But like we're just like we're just friends. Yeah. But like as bros. Yeah, there's a line in there. She's like, Gail is mine, and I'm like, Yeah, I'm like, baby girl, this girl you're imagining is not real. The first point. And again, just like you're saying, right after that. But like as friends, he can't get married or ever be happy with anybody else. Um, but definitely not with me either, because I don't really feel like that for him. But maybe I do, but just in case I do, he can't ever be happy with somebody else.

Julia 5:26

I don't love that.

Booked All Night 5:27

Yeah. It was really weird. This whole section of Pita versus Gail was really weird because one, there's this section where she's very possessive of Gail, where she hadn't been before. And also, after defining a friendship with Pita, there's another night where she's just like, I really wish he were here to hold me. And it's like, okay, honey, I can understand being like, I'm drawn to both of them. But your attitude toward both of them has been, listen, I like you guys as friends.

Julia 5:58

Mm-hmm.

Booked All Night 5:59

And only as friends.

Julia 6:01

I feel like I would have been interested to hear her mental gymnastics if she thought about someone else being with PETA as well. Like I'm interested to see what she would feel with that if PETA is also hers.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah.

Julia 6:17

We really can't picture him with anybody else because they're kind of stuck together. They are. So it's like, what is he gonna do? Have a mistress? I mean, maybe.

Booked All Night 6:29

Who would it be?

Julia 6:31

I mean, the only other person we know of is Madge.

Booked All Night 6:34

So That's true. Like I guess it's Madge. That's it, yeah. The only other named character.

Julia 6:43

Because everybody else we meet is running away from the districts and just kind of going into the unknown with handmade mocking Jay, where I mean, it did make me really sad for Pita when he wakes her up from falling asleep at the table.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Yeah.

Julia 7:02

Like he just always has to pick up the pieces, pick up her pieces, and it's not fair. Yeah.

Booked All Night 7:09

It's so gross. They're different kinds of caretaker archetypes, right? One one is a material provider, that's that's Katna. She's like, I know to feed you, I know to clothe you, I know to keep a roof over your head, and then you have PETA who is more emotional, and he's like, Okay, it's time to go get a good night's sleep in bed. If you need me, I'm over here. And it's not fair because they are children. They're still, they're what, 17, maybe at this point, because we're uh we're about to go into the games. I mean, that's part of the message, right? Is that we put things on to children and onto the next generation that they don't deserve to have to put up with or to find coping skills for.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Yeah.

Booked All Night 7:54

I know that we're gonna have it throughout this entire series of I hate that this was published upwards of 20 years ago, and it is still wildly relevant to a lot of discourse today. And I feel like I'm gonna have to say it every episode because it still is, and it's it's so relevant in many different ways. It's not just the surface level of this oppressive government, it's that and you know, the trauma that we inherit from our parents and the generations before us, and the things that don't get handled, and just war theory. And is it ever, you know, really justified in going to war or punishing people after that war is over? Like I live for a day where this is not relevant and not the hellscape that I currently live in, but but that's you know where I am.

SPEAKER_05 8:44

But unprecedented times.

Julia 8:46

Oh my god. If I'm a millennial call sign, if I fucking here. It's interesting, like every single time I see I read Gail, or every single time I read PETA, I immediately think of what the other would do.

Booked All Night 9:03

Yeah.

Julia 9:03

Like how the other would react in that, and I wish I didn't associate that much weight to that sort of comparison the whole time. And it sometimes really takes me out of the story, and it's frustrating.

Booked All Night 9:19

There are some times that I feel it's very intentional, especially we when we open here and Gail is getting whipped. PETA does stand up for him. And I I think we are at that moment lent into would Gail have stood in front of PETA? Because Gail is constantly like, let's have our own uprising with blackjack and hookers, we can do it.

Julia 9:38

PETA standing in front of him as a victor is different and has a different weight. Exactly. Like Gail, I don't think would have because he just would have been whipped after that. You know what I mean? But it's still nice that PETA had the opportunity to stand in front of Gail and Hamish was able to come up with those lies. Yeah. Man, they're good at that, I have to say.

Booked All Night 10:04

They are good at that, and they are quick at that.

Julia 10:07

Seriously, love. Like they're just like, we'll follow your lead, my guy. Like to Katniss. Like, whatever she's gonna do, they're like, yeah, we're here, we're gonna support you in any way we can.

Booked All Night 10:24

Oh yeah. Speaking of, uh, we're all gonna run away. We're all gonna run away, we're gonna go into the woods. It's gonna be fine. We're actively talking to literally everybody. Hey, Hey Mitch, we're gonna run away. Oh, okay. Hey PETA, we're gonna run away. Hey Gail, we're gonna run away with everybody. We're taking everybody, we're all gonna just go out into the woods, and we're gonna live happily ever after. And there is a part after the quell is announced where Hey Mitch is like, oh, are we still running away? She's like, no. And he's like, Oh, did we figure out the flaws in that plan then? Yeah. We realize not such a great idea.

Julia 11:00

Isn't that before the quarter quell is announced? I know there's more to it where she does think about it again. And I'm only saying that because I literally just read it like an hour ago.

Booked All Night 11:11

Oh my god.

Julia 11:12

But because I forgot that to read 13 and 14. Anyways, but I'm pretty sure that I mean, obviously it doesn't really matter that that plan with Hamich happens before before that conversation because they're walking from the victor's houses to the village, and she is always trying to find time to talk to him.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Yeah.

Julia 11:35

And then because after that, she just thinks about it. She's like, Well, it's too late to run now.

Booked All Night 11:40

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that it? It is it is before that, before the quail. It's not long after Gail's whipping and he's inside.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yeah.

Booked All Night 11:49

And she's got some lovely lines here, like, I really can't think about kissing when I've got a rebellion to incite.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Yeah.

Booked All Night 12:00

There's like a moment of silence with Hamich, and then it's, oh, so we're all heading off into the great unknown, are we? Uh no, not anymore. Oh, worked through the flaws in that plan, did you, sweetheart? Any new ideas? I want to start an uprising. As you should say, loud with your whole chest, when you know that your government is watching you.

unknown 12:23

Yeah.

Booked All Night 12:24

So, little FBI man in my computer, I want to start an uprising. But remember that in Pan Am, the little FBI man is also in the trees and the doorknobs and your walls and your phone lines. Yeah, rocks on the ground.

Julia 12:41

Like, yeah, there's really nowhere that's like safe. Like it's shocking to me that she even did that. Like, I don't understand at why at no part they're not writing things down, showing each other, and then burning the letters. Like, to me, I'm like, it's right there.

Booked All Night 12:55

Right?

Julia 12:56

It's right there.

Booked All Night 12:57

Like they're not developing like a code or like they were more subtle when Katniss was in the arena and Hamish was like, I will send food when you kiss the boy. And here she's just like, I don't know if everyone can hear me, but I want to start an uprising. One more time, I would like to start an uprising in District 12.

Julia 13:23

I thought it was really interesting though that after she says that, I think they make it to the village, and all of a sudden she's like looking around at all the kids and all the people that would have to join in this uprising. And she's like, Oh, wait, this isn't just me and Gail and other strong people fighting. Like, all these people could die.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Yep.

Julia 13:46

And at first it's like, yeah, we're gonna start the uprising, and like you kind of just get into this, and then it's like, oh, there's children.

Booked All Night 13:55

Yeah.

Julia 13:55

And the implications are so much bigger.

Booked All Night 13:58

It's not only that there's children, but there's elderly folk, there's people that are disabled in this district that you know, like they're a coal mining district, they've gone down, they've gotten hurt, they've never been able to go back to work.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Yeah.

Booked All Night 14:11

Even if you do get this uprising going, how are you going to determine who is the strongest among you who should be getting the food and the resources to remain the strongest among you in order to have a successful uprising? And yeah, there's just so much that her mom is thinking about. I think that Hamich is thinking about. I mean, it's obvious. Everybody else who was like, Yeah, let's go do it, it's not even on their radar.

Julia 14:38

Yeah. Well, even like later on, I I think she's talking to Hamish again, and he's like, Yeah, they were able to revolt in eight because there's so many of them. They were able to do that in four because there's so many of them. And he's like, if we did that here, every single person would have to be involved. Yes. And okay, first off, you would think that the coal mining district would have more people because coal is powering everything, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Right.

Julia 15:06

So, unless there's some other source of power that I'm unaware of, but the nuclear plant in 13, they don't have access to.

Booked All Night 15:15

Right. And the story that they get for that right now is that they were like a graphite mining district.

Julia 15:22

Oh, yeah, uh, precious minerals.

Booked All Night 15:23

Yeah, or no.

Julia 15:25

Um, yeah, I think you're right with the with the graph.

Booked All Night 15:29

Yeah, with the graphite.

Julia 15:30

Because then they couldn't like make more technology or something.

Booked All Night 15:34

Yeah, I don't remember the excuse after that, but it was definit like the story was definitely not this was the nuclear district or the this is where we built all the weapons district.

Julia 15:46

Because yeah, how how do we know it's the nuclear district? Does Katniss figure that out?

Booked All Night 15:52

I think we know that because we have read the series.

Julia 15:55

But I I swear it's said in here.

Booked All Night 15:58

No, they said they said graphite.

Julia 16:00

Chapter 10, District 13, principal industry was nuclear. Oh, okay, she finds that out from the people that she finds in the Oh Bonnie and Twilight. Yeah, in her little cabin.

Booked All Night 16:12

Yeah, where they're like they have the longest stretch of logic. They're like, they only use the same footage. And I'm like, yeah, the Capitol uses the same footage for like everything though. They don't change up the footage they show just before the games of the dark days. It's the same Oh, got it.

Julia 16:34

Yeah, I understand what you mean. It's like the same propaganda reel.

Booked All Night 16:38

Yeah, exactly. Why would this one little mocking jay, this little flicker of a mocking jay, be enough to get you to be like, oh, but yes.

Julia 16:48

Aren't they referring to like because she says uh Katniss talks about it later on when she's watching for the mocking jay, the reporter who's like pretending to be there?

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Yeah.

Julia 16:59

And she still sees that little mocking Jay in the corner. I would think that that's more so what they're talking about. Cause it's like, why are you pretending to be there and use this?

Booked All Night 17:08

Yeah.

Julia 17:09

And like have the green screen. Like, what is the point of that? If it if there was really nothing there, then it's nothing for you to go and actually just film it since you're pretending to be there anyway.

Booked All Night 17:20

Yeah. I'm kind of with Katniss here that it's like you're going out here based on the shot of a bird.

Julia 17:26

Well, no, I agree that that is a stretch. But at the same time, like, there have to have been more rumors. You didn't do that just because of the shot of the bird.

Booked All Night 17:38

Right. I kind of wish we heard them more of those rumors here, where like maybe possibly from Katniss, where she's like, Oh yeah, that's right, and uh there's a swimming pool in the middle of the district, and if you say red rum, red run, red run three times, President Snow appears, and if like just maybe like a list of other kind of crazy things that go through the district that might have been like pranks as kids or like the little playground rumor things.

Julia 18:04

See, okay, I think I was like associating my knowledge of obviously the rest of the series with this, because you're right, it is like a really big stretch to only have that one tiny bird.

Booked All Night 18:20

There is a good line here, though, right after she's like, but they were graphite miners. She then hesitates and she acknowledges, but that's information that I got from the capital. And I think it's the first time I see her questioning the information that she knows about her world because the only information she gets is from the Capitol.

Julia 18:40

Yeah. Which she's finally starting to acknowledge and put together.

Booked All Night 18:44

Yeah. Yeah. Not long after that, she's very angry. She's like, well, then if they exist, why haven't they helped us? Oh, right. It's true. Why do they leave us like this with the hunger and the killings and the games? And, you know, suddenly she hates the imagery that she's getting out of this, and she's like, So they're just sitting there underground, safe, and watching us all die. Okay, so they're no better than the Capitol.

Julia 19:06

Yeah, I also thought that was kind of a stretch because she, first off, doesn't know how big they are.

Booked All Night 19:11

Doesn't know if it could literally be like six people that survive.

Julia 19:14

No, exactly. Like, doesn't know how many resources they actually do have, if they could even help. Like, at the end of the day, 75 years is not that long to rebuild your whole life.

Booked All Night 19:27

Civilization. Yeah. I understand the sentiment, but as you're saying, that'd be like me right now as an American being upset that uncontacted tribes in the Amazon have not rallied together to help the American population. We don't know them. We don't know what they have, we don't know what they have access to. They maybe don't know about us, even if they are. Like the only reason you and I know that District 13 has the technology that it does is because we've read through the series. But as of this point right now, they could literally be six people in a bunker that managed to survive and they're just elderly with like one middle-aged dude who was born just as they went into the bunker.

Julia 20:09

Yeah. It feels like a mistake by the author. Does that make sense?

Booked All Night 20:15

Like a little whoopsie d'y, maybe we revealed this too soon kind of thing.

Julia 20:19

Yeah, like she gave them too much power too early. It's almost like there is something there. Why aren't they why aren't they helping them? Little Easter egg. There is actually something like d I don't know.

Booked All Night 20:29

No, I agree. I it's weird to critique that level of pacing because this is published in what, like 2009?

Julia 20:38

Yeah. Oh, and people are human. And I could just be reading into it as well.

Booked All Night 20:42

One, people are human, two, it was published in 2009, and the standards by which we published literature for young adults was drastically different. All of these books, by the way, are like 28 chapters. That's pretty short.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yeah.

Booked All Night 20:56

Particularly when you consider what modern-day genre fiction is, even for a young adult audience. It's much longer than that. Yeah. We have a limited time frame, we have a limited word count, we are actively aiming at an audience that is 16 years old, but we're writing for the audience that will wind up reading up because kids always read up. So my ideal audience for this is 16, 17 years old, but the reality is that a 12-year-old will pick it up, and the unseen portion of the market was 25 to 35 year olds, who no one saw coming for children's late.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Yeah.

Booked All Night 21:34

I think if it were written today, my suggestion would be that a lot of this information gets spread out. That we see the broadcast of District 13 first before we ever hear about it and hear about weird, quirky things in the background of it. That we find like a remnant of District 13 when she's out hunting. That like there's just like little things for us to be like, oh, this is where they're kind of coming from. That as opposed to just having two people randomly in a house in the woods info dump.

Julia 22:08

So the other thing that is also kind of confusing to me is why Katniss became such a symbol of the rebellion. That's gonna sound real bad, but like it's like all of a sudden she's there, she wins the games, and everyone's like, the mocking Jay, she's the symbol, blah, blah. And I'm like, I don't get it. I don't get how we got from A to Z here.

Booked All Night 22:32

It does at times feel like A to Delta, like we just skipped some parts and went to a different alphabet.

Julia 22:40

Yeah.

Booked All Night 22:41

And I know that we've had this particular discussion where it's like Rue is the mocking J, right? Rue is ultimately the flame that sparks these rebellions because she is a child, because she is cared for, because Katniss shows her due respect. But it is Rue's death that incites this, not Katniss. Yeah. And then they do just kind of take Katniss, they're like, hey, you're 16, you should lead a national rebellion. Which has always felt like the weirdest thing to me in in young adult literature. And it's one thing when the main character is older and they are 18, possibly 19, and they still kind of fit into that weird crossover space. But at 16, you're a baby.

Julia 23:28

Oh, 100%. Especially she's surrounded by adults that are um knowledgeable in strategy and all that sort of thing. It's not like she's leading a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing. Right. So, but like plot armor and all of that.

Booked All Night 23:46

Yeah. I can see how the mocking J itself becomes that symbol, right? Because one of how it was bred and how it came to remain living, and like no one expected it to live, but it did, and it was her symbol, the symbol of Victor that showed this particular empathy for her fellow man. But Katniss herself goes from, I'm gonna run away with Gail, I'm gonna run away with everybody, I kinda wanna kiss PETA, I'm gonna incite a riot, I wanna have an uprising in this district, but I also want to take all the kids and go, but we can't take all the kids and go, but I want to have an uprising somehow. Oh my god, it's gonna kill kids. Like, these are her thoughts in the span of one chapter. Why is she the one that is the chosen one? TM.

Julia 24:30

She doesn't really even show, I mean, obviously we're talking about future events, but I don't really think she even shows that much leadership in other situations. Like, she's very, I'm gonna make friends with one person, not I'm going to lead this whole scenario. But at the same time, like she's a symbol and not the actual like she's a figurehead.

Booked All Night 24:55

I'm picking up what you're putting down, and I agree. It's it's very weird.

Julia 25:00

It just seemed really quick.

Booked All Night 25:02

It is very quick.

Julia 25:04

For me, especially when she like when Rue died, and then all of a sudden they're showing. I'm thinking back to the movie, but like all of a sudden it's like, no, there's a riot because she was kind. But then now reading these chapters, like eight to fourteen that we just finished, Hamish goes and holds that one girl's hand while she's dying. Yeah. And like, so clearly other tributes have shown kindness to other other tributes, and it's not like she's the first one to ever do it. So it just seems like a really big leap, right? Yes. Okay.

Booked All Night 25:40

Yes. Cool.

Julia 25:42

It was something that was bothering me.

unknown 25:44

Yeah.

Booked All Night 25:45

It bothers me at large that that is a trope in children's fiction where they're like, obviously, this child will lead us to greatness, because they do it in middle grade too.

Julia 25:54

Well, they do it in like adult stuff too. Like, how many times have I read a book where this girl has never picked up a sword and then a month later she's leading a rebellion? The army. She's like the general of the army, and it was like, bitch, a week ago you were living in a village, but like, okay.

Booked All Night 26:10

Right? Right. That is my least, least favorite part of genre fiction. 100% when when the totally unqualified protagonist beats out the overly qualified antagonist. Yeah. And I'm like, how?

Julia 26:27

Yeah. Like Katna's winning the games, not she's not unqualified to do that. She has all those skills. It's just everything else that I'm like, I don't see it.

Booked All Night 26:37

And if they had left and they were out in the wilderness, uh, once they were in the arena and you know they're going back into the arena, that makes sense because her skills are based around survival and protecting those with her. That makes sense. But to lead an army and a political movement.

Julia 26:55

I guess we'll see how it plays out again. Maybe how it plays out in my mind is a whole lot looser than how it actually happens again.

Booked All Night 27:05

Maybe there's uh maybe there's too much Jennifer Lawrence in the brain and the portrayal of it as opposed to Book Catness.

Julia 27:13

But I like I don't even when we were gonna go when we watched the first movie, I forgot that the third movie was split into two parts. I was like, oh yeah, there's a part one, part two.

Booked All Night 27:23

So like You ready for that extra long movie night?

Julia 27:26

Yes, I'm very excited. But there's a lot about the third book that I don't remember. So Oh yeah.

Booked All Night 27:33

Anyway, I will say going back through these so far, and I know that I've said it like a thousand times and I keep getting glares, but there are so many calls for Sunrise on the Reaping, and there's not as many calls about Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes. And that also kind of bothers me, but bothers me about future publications where it's like you had the groundwork to kind of reference this moment, or what's the word I'm looking for? Foreshadow this moment that's coming up that I'm not allowed to talk about, which is pissing off my co-hosts. But in here, especially when they go to watch Hamish's games.

Julia 28:10

Yeah, I really liked that part.

Booked All Night 28:13

Here is a really good job that when you get to sunrise, you're gonna remember this section because a lot of all of this happens, right? And there's definitely other things that happen that get cut out, but we're not uh, what's the word? Like we're not naive about the fact that the capital cuts things out. We already know that from watching the clips from the last game, that they have a narrative they want to portray, and that's what they wind up portraying. We also know that whatever character you create for yourself for the games to get sponsors is what you wind up being for the rest of your life if you survive. And we see that across this series. But but ballad, I'll just complain about it when we get there, because right now we're talking about catching fire. Okay. So we are actively moving through Katniss's PTSD, and she's gotta take sleep syrup to go to bed because she just can't get to sleep without it. And I really liked I mean, not liked, like, oh wow, nightmares are wonderful, but she has um multiple of them and they get influenced by whatever's happening in real time. So, like right after the the wedding dress photo shoot, she's back in the games, but now she's in a torn version. Yeah, being chased by all these mutations, and I liked that that was kept up because a lot of times, especially in Kidlet, we'll be like, Oh wow, we went through some trauma. That was yesterday, and we're moving on. And and I liked that that was held up here.

Julia 29:43

Yeah. Especially when she sees um Pita's art.

Booked All Night 29:47

Oh, yeah, and she's like, I hate it.

Julia 29:49

Yeah, she's like, I love it, but like, I hate it. And thank you for all of this.

Booked All Night 29:55

The slappiest of compliments. It's really beautiful, beautiful work. I hate you, fuck you. Yeah, that's yeah.

Julia 30:00

Also, that whole like um talent thing. What was the fucking point of that?

Booked All Night 30:05

Yeah. I don't know.

Julia 30:08

Like, I was trying to think about that and I was like, theirs is never referenced ever. Like what? Phoenix talent is fucking people? Like, yeah.

Booked All Night 30:17

I don't I also don't understand. They they bring it up, they're like, you have to have a talent, you have to have a focus, uh oh, whatever. Okay, so yeah, like you have to have a hobby, cool. Okay, so Pita's is baking bread. Why can't mine being's painting?

SPEAKER_02 30:35

It's sorry, painting.

Booked All Night 30:37

Um, yeah, no, you're right. Pita's, oh yes, my narrate, my air quotes, his is painting, quote painting. Uh it just feels weird because we don't hear about that about any other victor.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Yeah.

Booked All Night 30:49

No, no one's like, well, Hamich used to have a hobby of caring for geese and now it's just drinking. Like, yeah, he doesn't he doesn't start out as uh I'm gonna brew liquor or something like that. He's just a drunk.

Julia 31:03

Is it such a focus though? Because they're trying to make her like, look, she's not a threat. Look at her, she's designing clothes, look, see? Look at her, she's participating in the Capitol Engine sort of thing. And that's why we're hearing about it.

Booked All Night 31:18

Maybe. But at the same time, wouldn't we hear about it from uh like not necessarily from other victors, but about other victors?

Julia 31:25

Yeah, no, if that were exactly like even when they're going through all the victors in the end of Phenix talent is holding his breath, says producer Rob.

Booked All Night 31:36

Oh, it kind of isn't though.

Julia 31:39

I don't like that implication right now.

Booked All Night 31:42

Yeah. Anyway, um Producer Rob made it sadder. Thank you, producer Rob.

Julia 31:49

Yeah, uh, when PETA is going through all the victors and he's like making notes about all of them, there could have been like uh, oh, she was career from District One. She was really good at needlepoint. Like it's just never mentioned again. And it just seems really strange.

Booked All Night 32:10

It is. It really is. I think it would make sense if the hobbies they were forced into were specifically to create capital in the capital, or right, like keep the the economics going. Like, oh, this this victor painted this painting, and so you want it hanging on your wall, and this victor designed this fashion, and so you want that fashion in your home. This one made ceramics, this one did this, and it's all just yeah, like the memorabilia. Yeah. But even that's not it.

Julia 32:45

It's just well, I mean it could be, but it's just not mentioned or it's yeah. Has a point, but yeah. Anyway, I'm just pointing out things that are mm bothering my little age di autistic brain.

Booked All Night 32:57

So it's almost like we have a podcast for that very reason.

SPEAKER_05 33:04

Yeah, that's fair.

Julia 33:05

I thought her nearly immediately leaving to go hunting right after Gail was whipped was bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Yeah.

Julia 33:13

Didn't love that, didn't not love that. It's like, did you learn nothing? Like that, he literally just got whipped, and you're like, I'm gonna go hunt. And you're like, I'm gonna go.

Booked All Night 33:25

I Okay. I feel like her hunting is only narratively for the purpose of getting us to meet Bonnie and Twill.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Yeah.

Booked All Night 33:33

And to know that the fence is back on. But I also feel like she could have met Bonnie and Twill inside her old house.

Julia 33:41

No, because then they would have had to get into the district. Her meeting them, they never made it into the district.

Booked All Night 33:48

Oh, they never made it into the district.

Julia 33:49

Yeah, because they're on the other side of the fence. I think she could have met them, but like to me, narratively, she should have gone hunting, met them. Gail never come for hunting, then she comes back. Gail happened to have has have game from whatever, but she's then he's being whipped, but she found out about District 13 in that moment.

Booked All Night 34:14

Ah, just like a reordering of events as opposed to taking some events out.

Julia 34:20

But I guess that's the catalyst to all the other stuff. It just seemed like it was too quick. Even like give it a couple weeks of like, oh, I I saw these kids starving, and I felt the need to go and get more game and like the guilt was weighing on me or something, not like I'm sad, I'm gonna go hunt. I'm bored. This is the only thing that makes me feel better.

Booked All Night 34:43

Like, what I'm bored, and I have fingered his face enough, and so now I need to go into the woods to go hunting.

Julia 34:51

I'm shaking my head at you for that.

Booked All Night 34:53

I do agree though, that it feels like, especially this section, that Katniss is constantly not learning the same lesson. She is being watched, period.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Yeah.

Booked All Night 35:04

And she still goes out and does these things. She's being told that she's being watched, and she's still like, well, not me. And she goes out and goes hunting. There's a part after or around Bonnie and Twill where she's like, Oh, could they have cameras around the district? And I'm like, Yes, you fucking moron, yes.

Julia 35:23

Yeah, duh. Cause like even Gail kissing Katniss, President Snow immediately knows about that, and it was in the fucking woods. Yeah. Like, her. And she's like, yeah, but like I'm gonna go to the lake where no one knows. And I'm like, so they can't follow you with cameras at no point? Because you've been going to the lake on your days off so many fucking times.

Booked All Night 35:46

Okay, even if you never thought that it was possible in the district to be watched that closely, you just got out of the arena where you were watched that closely. You could literally hear the cameras in the trees. Why would you not think or be paranoid about being watched just like that once you got out? Yeah. And even if you weren't immediately, once President Snow came to you and was like, let's not lie to each other, I saw you kiss the boy in the woods. Okay. He saw you kiss the boy in the woods.

Julia 36:18

You never go into the woods ever again.

Booked All Night 36:20

Exactly. Hamich is like, no, you don't understand you're being watched. She understands it in the sense of the train. She's like, Well, the train came from the Capitol. And it's like, hey, honey, the district also comes from the Capitol. It's their possession.

Julia 36:32

Yeah.

Booked All Night 36:33

Of course they watch it.

Julia 36:34

She like acknowledges that it's weird and then just immediately forgets. Okay. But even her falling out of the tree and her like guessing of them turning the power on. Like, to me, it's so obvious that obviously, like, obviously, they turn the power on because they know you're on the other side of the fence.

Booked All Night 36:58

Right. And they want to catch you so they can hit you.

Julia 37:01

Maybe that's it. Or maybe it's just random. What are you talking about?

Booked All Night 37:07

Sometimes I'm like, Katniss Everdeen, you're so smart. And sometimes I'm like, Katniss Everdeen, I want to shake you by the clavicle until you understand you're being fucking watched.

Julia 37:18

Yeah. And then as I was reading, she says that PETA just off the cuff mentioned that parts of the fence are being turned off because they're putting that chain link underneath. At no point does she tell anyone that she was on the other side of the fence. Does PETA just know her that well that he would have just guessed that?

Booked All Night 37:41

Bewildered arm movements.

Julia 37:45

Because I like literally went back and I was like, she doesn't tell anyone. She actively says she doesn't tell anyone. But then I guess they're like covering for her and they know. It's just, it's a lot. It's just a lot.

Booked All Night 37:57

So for years since she was like twelve, right? Yep. She's been going into the woods, hunting, and bringing back game. So if we don't know where Katniss is, it's a fair guess that she is out in the woods hunting on one of her walks, as we like to say when the authorities are around. PETA, I think, understands. They are all being watched. That's why he's like, hey, the fence, the fence is getting repaired. And Katniss, of course, is like, oh wow, that's nice. I'm still gonna climb under it, because that means that there's spots that haven't yet been repaired. And it's just like, no, girl.

Julia 38:30

Yeah, it was really annoying that like that was her first thought. Oh, well, perfect. I can get into the forest again. What? No, no, that's not that wasn't the point of him saying that.

Booked All Night 38:42

This section was definitely one of the ones where I wanted to reach in and throttle her. Oh, there is also a moment I want to put this on record because it's so very rare that we see this. Uh, on page 51, quote, I turn on the shower and stand under the warm rain for a minute before I realize I'm still in my underclothes to just confirm that underwear exists in the Capitol.

SPEAKER_05 39:06

I was like, she's gonna love this part. A situation where someone should be naked finally has clothes on.

Booked All Night 39:14

Finally has clothes on because every other time she's like, I get undressed and I'm totally nude. I'm like, I don't need to know. And also, why are all these adults looking at you when you're naked?

SPEAKER_02 39:26

Yeah, well.

Booked All Night 39:28

But here, on page 51 of Catching Fire, canonically, underwear does exist. Oh, and then Pita dumps all of Hamish's liquor and they force him into working withdrawal. Yeah, and they're like, Alright, let's go running, and he's like, I'm gonna kill you both. I'll read her or not, I'm gonna do it. It's gonna be fine.

Julia 39:50

Yeah, that part was like hard to read, especially his withdrawals and stuff. Because, like, obviously, it's gonna be PETA and Katniss. Why are you doing this to this poor man?

Booked All Night 40:03

They do have that discussion, right? So Katniss and Hamich both agree that when they go in, it's PETA that they're going to actively try to save. That they're gonna make sure that he's the victor that year.

Julia 40:16

Which again, they're having a conversation and not including PETA in it, and it really pisses me off.

Booked All Night 40:22

Right?

Julia 40:23

All three of you should be having a conversation about this and your strategy.

Booked All Night 40:28

Yeah. And a big part that Hamich brings up is if my name is called, I cannot stop him from volunteering. So if his name is called, I will volunteer, we will go in, PETA gets to stay home and be beloved by all. But again, why wouldn't you include PETA in some part of that discussion? Even if it was like, listen, if you wind up in there with me, we are saving you. No, you don't get a say in it. That's what we're doing.

Julia 40:57

Yeah. Because then you aren't working against each other. Like, why are you making him your ad not adversary, but now you're fighting against PETA fighting for you.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Yeah.

Julia 41:11

But at the same time, she knows that he's not gonna agree to it. So But then still have that discussion. So you're all on the same fucking team. Like, you're all supposed to be on the same fucking team.

Booked All Night 41:23

It takes her a very long time to realize they are a team.

Julia 41:27

Yeah.

Booked All Night 41:28

Most of what gets shown in the latter half of this section is them talking it out. I mean, like, okay, so if we're up against that guy from that district, or that guy from that district, or her, or that like them, like we have this plan of action, these are their weaknesses, and everything else. They even start studying each other, and they're like, Well, if it's PETA, I'll just shoot him from afar, if it's Katniss, I'll just, you know, present her with a choice and she'll be blinded like a deer at headlights. And not once are they like, how can we work together to make it to the end before we have to make this choice?

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Yeah.

Booked All Night 42:04

What can we do to get sponsors? Well, that's not even a talk right now. What can we do to get sponsors? Because all of these other victors also have their fans and their sponsors from previous games and whatever activities they're up to now. Like so much of this section, it was so incredibly frustrating that a lot of this seemed so obvious to be like, okay, look who your teammates are. She doesn't even come to that until after they watch Hamish's games. And she's like, oh, he also pissed off the Capitol because the way that he won his games was not the intended way for them to win the games. So now that I know that he's on my side, and I'm like, bitch, you didn't figure that out last year?

Julia 42:45

Yeah, it sucks that she needed him to his past actions to like prove that to her. Like, oh, he's not a he is just as smart as us. Like, he's just he's fighting against the capital too, when like she knows that he's fighting against the capital because he's been telling her to play up this thing with PETA the whole fucking time. So it's not like it's a mystery that he's not a big fan of the Capitol. Yeah. And so what him figuring out this axe thing, like to me, when she even says at the end there, when it's like, now I understand Hamish a little bit more. I honestly read that line and I was like, I don't like what I don't understand how you understand Hamish more, like what? Because he was intuitive, because he it was innovative, because he saw a flaw in the system and used it to his advantage. To me, him using that bounce back thing has nothing to do with him fighting against the capital. It has to do with I found something that I could possibly use to win these games.

Booked All Night 43:49

Yeah.

Julia 43:50

I don't understand where that cross happens, where he's now fighting against the capital with that.

Booked All Night 43:55

At the very least, at this point in the series, I agree.

Julia 44:00

Even before that, when they're watching Hamanch's games and he's talking with the friend that he made, and they're walking along, and she's like, Where are we going? And he's like, Well, there has to be an end somewhere. When Katniss was walking in her games and she got far enough away, the Capitol actively tried to push her back.

Intro 44:18

Correct.

Julia 44:19

Why are they allowing him then to continue to walk over there? Why aren't they doing anything to stop him? Because clearly they can. They talk about other things that happen where they're releasing.

Booked All Night 44:36

I'm not going to say that it's like, oh, they don't have the technology to. I'm thinking they may not have thought about that in that particular section of the arena.

Julia 44:45

Oh, like we're now associating bigger meaning to it because of what's going on, and that wouldn't have had the same implications in the past.

Booked All Night 44:54

Yeah. Hamishes were the 50th games, and so the lesson that the game makers take from that is, oh, they can find the edge of the arena. We don't want them to find the edge of the arena. So the next year they are prepared to redirect them by any means necessary. Even though they have always had a way to kind of control where they're at, they maybe didn't think about it on the edges. That's fair.

Julia 45:17

Like a no better, do better game of Othello.

Booked All Night 45:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Julia 45:21

Learning from your mistakes sort of situation.

Booked All Night 45:23

Yeah.

Julia 45:23

Yeah. That's fair.

Booked All Night 45:24

This is going to be very difficult for me to talk about as we get the snippets of Hamich's games.

Julia 45:33

But I think this is the only snippet, right? We don't really hear about him again.

Booked All Night 45:37

Exactly. Yeah, this is the only snippet that we get, and we get specific imagery, so we see the allyship he had with Mazally Donner. Yeah. We learn, like, oh, there's 48 players, because there's twice as many tributes. We see some of the chariot rides. Yeah. Caesar Flickerman. We see Hamish being cocky. The opening of the game where everyone's running to the cornucopia, and then kind of figuring out that the meadow, while beautiful, is also poisonous. Uh, we see his empathetic holding the hands of Maisile Donner as she dies after she gets attacked by the bird. And then the final fight where he uses the force field of the arena to kill the other tribute. My notes are only sobbing emojis. And that's all I can offer you at this time.

Julia 46:34

You'll just save those for later. That's your little note so we can come back to it, and I appreciate it in every single way. And I honestly do love when you point out these things as like, hey, just so you know, pay attention to this. Hey, just so you know, pay attention to this. And I am really excited to read all of those things because uh do love me some little foreshadowing, but I'm sorry that you're experiencing this tragedy.

Booked All Night 47:00

I can offer you a sobbing emoji in this trying time.

Julia 47:05

Yeah.

Booked All Night 47:05

And that's kind of it.

Julia 47:08

Yeah. I mean, I you don't know what you don't know though, too.

Booked All Night 47:11

So if this is the only information you have about Haman's games, I think this was really well done, that they have their own speculation about his motives in there, that I don't remember them noting exactly, but I think it's very clear that just like their year, there are things missing from the games. There was definitely a narrative that they put forth that even the tapes that they're watching are from the Capitol, so it's not the whole picture that they're getting.

Julia 47:39

When they say we're gonna watch the whole games, or we're gonna watch the games, in my head, I'm like, isn't that like weeks of footage then?

Booked All Night 47:45

Like what days at least.

Julia 47:47

Yeah, I'm like, what is this like? We are watching a two-hour movie.

Booked All Night 47:50

Like, yeah, that's that's the other thing. Then when they put it in, they're not watching the games, right? They're watching the highlights reel.

Julia 47:58

Yeah, so I don't even understand how you can make informed not decisions about the other tributes to study them, but like inferences about their character if you're only ever able to watch these highlight reels, because you're only ever seeing their strengths. I don't right, like there wouldn't be too many like opportunities to see their the strongest weaknesses. They're not gonna portray those because they want to show them as strong, right? Like they're not gonna show this overcoming story, they're showing everyone else's weak and then being like, look, they're special.

Booked All Night 48:36

They're special and they're strong, and they're the best that the capital has to offer, and now that they have won, they're no longer district, they're capital, and that's important. And like, yeah, the that's part of the narrative. That's part of this cut and paste strategy that the Capitol has. While they're watching these, and like every single time that they mention watching these reels, all I can think about is this photo from like one of my media textbooks, where there's a square in the middle of it and it looks like somebody is stabbing another person. And when you come further out of the photo, it's actually like reversed, and the person who is doing the stabbing is actively running away, and it's just about you know, like what media has the power to control with the frame and the narrative. That's what they're getting here. I also don't understand. I mean, like, I do understand because it's like trauma, and I can't imagine that if they were sending other kids in this year, if Katniss and Pita would have wanted to sit there and be like, right, so what they're not showing you uh is his leg decaying and just kind of coming off, right? But knowing what's ahead, why Hamich at this point wouldn't be like, so this is what I know about the force field keeping you in the arena, or this is what I learned about the structure of the arena itself, not necessarily the theme of it, but how they get things to and from just to kind of give the logistics about building it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Yeah.

Julia 50:14

Do they say that they even use Hamage as a resource while they're gathering all of this information? I think they do.

Booked All Night 50:21

They like have to because they don't want to go up to him and be like, hey, you know how you're friends with those other victors now? How can we kill them? That's totally fair.

Julia 50:32

They're very respectful of his feelings here.

Booked All Night 50:34

Yes.

Julia 50:35

One thing that I just wanted to bring up before I do forget with Hamich going sober and how much he struggled with that, and then the end of chapter 14, and it's like he picks up a bottle of wine. That honestly broke my heart to read that. Yeah. I was like, oh, like all that pain you went through. To you've been on the train for a week, like a second. Yeah, and you're already picking up the wine, and I was like, fuck. That's that was hard to read. That was really hard to read. It made me really sad.

Booked All Night 51:06

That part, actually, I do want to read not only because it makes everybody sad, but I think it's a good place to end for us today on these quotes and where I really want to strangle Katnist. I whip around, afraid he's going to be angry over us for watching his tape, but he just smirks and takes a swig from the bottle of wine. So much for sobriety. I guess I should be upset he's drinking again, but I'm preoccupied with another feeling. I've spent these weeks getting to know who my competitors are without even thinking about who my teammates are. Now a new kind of confidence is lighting up inside me because I think I finally know who Hamich is, and I'm beginning to know who I am, and surely two people who have caused the Capitol so much trouble can think of a way to get PETA home alive.

SPEAKER_05 51:49

You selfish bitch. You stun bitch!

Julia 51:53

I just Like Pita and Hamich have spent so much time thinking about the three of them, and for her to be like, I haven't even thought about the other two people that I'm spending time with. Like, first off, you have though. So you for you to not acknowledge that and be aware of that also hurts me.

Booked All Night 52:13

Part of me gets it, right? There's no there's no other chance for her not to go into the arena. She's the only female victor. Fine. However, the fact that a lot of her thoughts about this have been like, I'm going back into the arena. I, me, solo, back in the arena. I'm going back in the arena. I'm the only one going back in the arena. And it's like, no.

Julia 52:34

And I have to save PETA by myself.

Booked All Night 52:36

And I yeah. I have to do it by myself. I can't talk to anybody else about it. Like, this you can't talk to anybody else about, but four times a fucking day, you're like, hey, let's start an uprising.

Julia 52:46

Yeah. And she almost like thinks about Hey Mitch as like the internet, like just a resource to use to get PETA out of there. It's not like who he is, or even PETA. She's like, I need to get this tree out of the arena. Which is her not including him in the discussion as if he has any choice of his about his life.

Booked All Night 53:06

Or about what he's gotta face when he comes home.

Julia 53:08

Or that. Yeah.

Booked All Night 53:09

Like he's the one that's in love with you. We're gonna make sure that you live, and then every year when they show highlights, you can watch me die over and over and over again, and that'll be fine, right? Yeah. Hooray!

Julia 53:24

It really pissed me off when they were showing her in those wedding dresses, and her first thought was like, I didn't have a chance to prepare Gail for this. I wonder what he's thinking. I was like, Yo, fuck Gail. Who cares? Who fucking cares? Who fucking cares? You are probably gonna die. So poor one that.

Booked All Night 53:44

One that. And two, there's a part where like she's literally like, listen, he's gonna kill everybody I love. And if that weren't the case, maybe you would be the person that I love. And he's just like, Oh, well, where would we be then? And she's like hunting in the woods. Yeah, on Sundays. Like we do every Sunday. We would have Sundays.

Julia 54:03

Okay.

Booked All Night 54:04

Sundays in the park with Gail. Sure. That's it.

Julia 54:07

When she's making that book with PETA, and she like is watching him paint, and she goes, His face takes on a special look when he concentrates. His usual easy expression is replaced by something more intense and removed that suggests an entire world locked away inside him. And I'm like, are you just realizing that this man has inner strength? You're just no you're right now. That's that's what you're seeing is that he has dedication, and there's more to him than just, I like to bake bread. Like it pissed me off so much that she didn't even consider that before. Like, I know she does say here that she saw him have that look in his eye in the arena and at other points, but I'm like, you do not give this man enough credit.

SPEAKER_05 54:56

Oh my fucking god!

Booked All Night 54:58

All I could think in that scene was paint me like one of your French friends.

SPEAKER_05 55:04

Well, on that note, I think that's the perfect place to end.

Booked All Night 55:08

Right there.

SPEAKER_05 55:09

Right there. Paint me like one of your French friends. Paint me like one of your rocks.

Booked All Night 55:17

Paint me with your fondant. Do you think he uses Fonden? Disgusting ass Fonden to do all the decorating.

Julia 55:23

I mean, I used to watch those cake decorating competitions. Remember when those were all the rage?

Booked All Night 55:28

Oh yeah. Oh, but buttercream is delicious. I don't care how fuzzy it makes my teeth feel, but Fonden is gross.

Intro 55:35

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