You Never Get Off This Train: Catching Fire, 1-7

Everything is fine! Can't you see that everything is fine?

Our deep dive into Suzanne Collins's Hunger Games Series continues as we jump into Catching Fire. Join Jess, Katy, and Julia as they discuss worldbuilding, characterization through action, whether or not Katniss is a complete idiot, the fact that Gale sucks, just how much they'd love to see how a rebellion came together, and much more. 

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Transcript

Jessica Mary 0:04

Welcome to Booked All Night, the podcast where hot takes me craft notes and no one gets enough sleep. I'm Jess.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

I'm Katie. I'm Julia. I'm Maggie. Get ready for unhinged hot takes.

Jessica Mary 0:15

A whole lot of books, midnight giggles, and zero shade. Grab your blankets, booklets, it's time to get booked all night. Welcome to Booked All Night. I'm Jess. I'm Julia. I'm Katie. We are discussing chapters one through seven of Catching Fire, book two in the Hunger Game series. We will be discussing all books and films all the way up to November for the theatrical release of Sunrise on the Reaping. If, for some strange reason, you have not finished up to chapter 7, then hit pause if you care about spoilers. And if you don't, then hey, let's go! Time for my recap. So here's the recap. It's the victory tour, which is specifically halfway between each of the games. Gail sucks. There's an uprising in District 11. Gail sucks. Katniss is trying desperately to save her loved ones. President Snow is watching her like super close as fuck. Gail sucks. Uh there might be an escape plan, maybe. Oh, and also Gail sucks. Sounds about right. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Sounds about right. Yeah. I'm the only one that doesn't like Gail as much as everyone else. That doesn't likes Gail? Sorry. That doesn't not like Gail. Like, I don't think he sucks that much.

Jessica Mary 1:29

I think he sucks.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

I think they both suck.

Jessica Mary 1:31

I mean, they do both suck in their own respective ways, but like in this particular chapter section, Katniss comes up to Gail and she's like, we have to get away, we have to get our families away. And he's like, perfect. And she's like, and I'll go talk to Pita. And he's like, no. Gross. No, no. He has to die by torture. It'll be terrible, but we can go. And when she brings up the same idea to Pita, Pita's like, oh, okay, get everybody together. Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

No, he's kind of hesitant when she says that Gail might be humming.

Jessica Mary 2:00

Hesitant, but he's not like, no, that fucker has to stay.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Right. But on the flip side, right? So when they're like he knows that Katniss does not like love him in the way that that he loves her.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

And and yet, like, when they're talking about nightmares, he's just like, my nightmare is like you dying and you not being there. Yeah. You not being there. And and now that I'm waking up next to you, like it it it helps. Yeah. And so it's just like, okay, dude, like, stop it. Stop it. You're confusing her even more.

Jessica Mary 2:35

So there is that kind of guilt trip, which is part of the reason PETA also sucks. But in terms of their behavior in confronting her about their feelings, PETA in this section apologizes. He's like, Yeah, listen, I was an ass, and I shouldn't have approached it that way. And you're right, things were really confusing in the games, and that's a lot to work through, and I shouldn't have held you to that, and I'm sorry, but can we like get off on a new foot and be friends? And Gail is like, hey, fuck you, you're getting married. And she's like, No, the government is forcing me to, or they're going to kill all of my loved ones, which, you know, you're one of my loved ones, and he's like, Well, fuck them. Fuck you, fuck everything. And then he goes into town.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Like, Gail fucks. I mean, I agree, but I'm teen catness, like catniss solo.

Jessica Mary 3:29

Yeah, team.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

Team catness by her damn self. Like the part that I wanted to bring up about Pita's response, though, that pissed me off was him saying to her, Well, I don't think you're gonna follow through with it. So yeah, I'll just say yes, I'll go. And I was like, Oh, so you don't actually mean it. You don't actually mean that you would go with her. You're just saying that to placate her right now. That's how I took that, and I was like, that's gross. Like they both suck in their own ways.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Yeah, but I feel like Pale knows her, like she tells him everything. But Pita also knows that if there's an uprising or something that happens, she's not gonna leave people behind. Like, she's not gonna run away. She's going to try to fight for people. And I think he's right in that sense. Like, yeah, she's not gonna run away, especially if she knows that someone in town, like even who is it? Uh the lady at the um Madge.

Jessica Mary 4:23

Great uh Greasy Say.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Greasy Say. Oh, that's right. Like if Greasy Say was in trouble, yeah. Madge is her friend, but like Greasy, if Greasy Say was in trouble, you know Katniss wouldn't just be like, oh well, she's on her own because I'm gonna go save me and my family. Like, yeah, she would try and help her.

Jessica Mary 4:39

There is a part in there where she's after Snow leaves and she's like, I gotta tell somebody. And she goes through the whole list of who to tell and who not to tell and why they can't know. And she's like, and then I gotta leave, but who do I tell that I'm leaving? I can't I can't tell anybody that I'm leaving. Unless they're coming with me, they can't know because it'll just put them in danger. She's like, so maybe I should just leave by myself. No, that's also not a good idea. And she just has this rolling avalanche of ideas on top of the identity crisis that she's starting the book with. Because she she's got a whole bit where uh I have quotes somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Like when she talks about how she knew where she fit.

Jessica Mary 5:22

Yeah. She's like, we might have been poor, but I knew exactly where I fit into things, I knew who I needed to provide for, I knew how I could do that, and now I have a lot of funds that nobody else has. Like, what do I do here? You know, she went from being a member of the community and the seam to something above that, at least financially.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Yeah, uh, but I think she does mention that she's using her money for I would say good, right? She purchases whatever she can at the seam market. You know, like you guys helped me out when I was in need, so here have some money. Like, I'm dispersing what I've what I've won.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

Yeah, she's trying to like give them money in the most dignified way possible. She's not just having it out, she's actively purchasing things and like which is also her awareness of out how those people would take it. Yeah, right. Trying to stay part of the community because she's sad. Yeah, yeah.

Jessica Mary 6:26

There's a part in that when she is offering charity up to Gail's family, because now Gail works in the mines, and so he's not out hunting. And she goes, I believe his mother's name was Hazel, and she's like, Hazel knows me just as well as anybody. And there's a line there where she's like, I'm pretty certain plenty of people thought Gail and I would get married. My reaction to that was like, did they? Because the first book, you're like, nope, firmly friends, not even thinking about romance, gotta survive. Even if I weren't in the games, have to take care of my family. How are people suddenly getting that idea?

SPEAKER_02 7:00

I don't think they're suddenly getting this idea. I think she is kind of maturing and looking at things a different way since the Hunger Games. Because, let's be honest, she's just like, you know, we're just strictly friends, we're just strictly friends, we're just strictly friends. And now she's learning that, you know, Pete has loved her since forever. Yeah and he looks at her in a different light, and people actually care about her and want her to win and all this stuff, and now she's like realizing that people are seeing her in a way she doesn't see herself. So maybe this is one of the things where she's like, Well, everyone probably thought we were gonna get married since we spent so much time together and we hunt together, and maybe even if we didn't love each other, we're comfortable with each other as friends.

Jessica Mary 7:45

Speaking of how they love each other, Gail says, I love you, and Katniss says, I know. She turns into Han Solo. She that is my note exactly. She turns into Han Solo, and it's I love you, I know, and you know what you are to me as well. Like, I think you let PETA down a little easier when you guys got off the train and you were like, hey, thank God we don't have to pretend we like each other anymore. Or in this one, you're just like, uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh huh. Wow, look at that leaf. That's a really cool leaf.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah, then the boys get jealous because they find out, like, Peter finds out that she kissed Gail and Once. Once.

Jessica Mary 8:32

And when does when does he ask her? It's right after the District 11 uprising. So you just watched a guy get shot in the head and he's like, hey, so just the once, right? Priorities, buddy, priorities.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

Yeah. Ridiculous.

Jessica Mary 8:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Yeah.

Jessica Mary 8:49

Before we get to that uprising, though, I do want to still talk about some of the like further world building that we got about Victor's village and especially about Heinich and his stank-ass house. He doesn't let anyone clean. He doesn't let anybody in to clean. To be fair, if I thought everybody was watching me, I also would not let anybody in to clean. Yeah. I think that's fair, given the world that he lives in, sure, but maybe, just maybe, like a little Lysol wipe. Because the description of it is my nose immediately wrinkles in disgust. Hamitch refuses to let anyone in to clean and does a poor job himself. Over the years, the odors of liquor and vomit, boiled cabbage and burned meat, unwashed clothes and mouse droppings have intermingled into a stench that brings tears to my eyes. That is disgusting.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

He's like a hoarder.

Jessica Mary 9:43

Of filth. I mean, he's also extremely depressed and there is that. So And he has reason to be. Yeah. Even without what we know happens in Sunrise, we at this point know that since the 50th quarter quell, so 25 years ago, for 25 straight years, he has mentored at least one boy and one girl and watched them die every single year. I'd have a drinking problem too.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

Yeah. Sure, he was a little more enthusiastic back in the day.

Jessica Mary 10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

And even Katniss says that she now can't pass the school without thinking which of the kids she's going to have to train for the hunger games. Yeah. Like now she can't not think about that. Yeah. And that's very traumatic.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Yeah. Like at least other victors have maybe more options, but it's it's her. She's gonna have to coach a little girl and like, ugh. Like, even in the last book, immediately after winning, she was like, and shit.

Jessica Mary 10:58

Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

Okay. That's gotta suck so much.

Jessica Mary 11:03

Yeah. It it's also it's part of like the games are never done. Right. That's an understanding we have, uh, especially once we get out of the arena, and even Hamich tells us once we're here, she's like, just get me through the train trip, and he's like, You never get off the train. Yeah, the games are always happening, you are always a part of them. It it's forever, and you have no other choice but to go have a happily ever after with that boy. That is your identity now. And not just for you, but for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Yeah. So my question would be like, would it be easier just to die in longer games?

Jessica Mary 11:41

Yeah. In the long run, probably. I think so. Which, I mean, that's a super depressing thought, but I think it would just be easier to not have survived them, especially you know, what we know happens to younger victors once they come out of the games. Like, we know what happens to Finnick, and good-looking victors.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

They don't necessarily have to be younger.

Jessica Mary 12:07

Yeah. I mean, they're all younger, they're under 18. Yeah. But like, whatever they cultivate for themselves in order to survive the games becomes the identity they have to live with. And so it's like, nothing of what you see involving anything of this is the truth.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

And I think like, just to be clear with this series and like the podcast vibe and stuff like that, like, as we go on, it's gonna get darker and darker and darker. And I'm sure that the books past the first trilogy are very dark as well.

Jessica Mary 12:43

Yeah. We I mean we have a pretty dark moment here with District 11. Yes. Oh, I cried. That is such a depressing, depressing scene. Um District 11 is the first stop on the victory tour, and when they get there, you know, Katniss thanks them for the bread, and she's like, I'm like, thank you for your sacrifice of your child, and thank you for the bread and like taking care of me in response to that. And Pita responds with, we'd like to share our wealth with the survivors' families, and so we're gonna do that. And then someone whistles Rue's theme. And then everybody gives the three-fingered salute, and all hell breaks loose. It is PETA says, We'll give you our money. She says, Thank you for your children, thank you for the bread, then the whistle, then the salute, and then they haul him up to the top of the stairs and put a bullet in his head.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

Who do we think they shot after that? Because they said two more shots rang out that they could hear. Do you think it was like Thresh's grandmother?

Jessica Mary 13:48

Anybody close by, I assume. Yeah, trying to help. Yeah. I wonder why they didn't tell Effie that people just got shot.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

I like, I don't know. If I was in that position, I'd want to save someone from the truth if I could.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

I think it's also said that like people who live in the Capitol might not understand why people are rebelling and stuff like that. That's true.

Jessica Mary 14:10

Yeah. She goes exploring a little after that, and because she's somewhat of an expert in architecture. And she's like, he pointed a gun at me. He nudged me with his gun, and she can't believe that anyone would have the audacity to do that specifically to her. But I feel like not telling her kind of endangers her.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

I feel like not telling her in that moment, though, was the right choice. Like she she seems to me the type that would take that a little hysterically.

Jessica Mary 14:38

A little.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Yeah, just a little bit.

Jessica Mary 14:41

Effie's part of their support system and part of the PR. I feel like if Effie had known that that had happened, Effie might have come down harder with these are the speeches that we're doing. These are how we're going to rehearse, and this is how we are going to prevent this from happening. Even if like she didn't fully understand the ramifications of playing into that. I do think at her core that Effie wants to keep Pita and Katniss and even Hamich safe.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Yeah, but they were able to do that without her intervention. Like, what do you think telling her would have added that they weren't able to discern on their own?

Jessica Mary 15:19

Maybe if Effie had realized the seriousness of the situation, that someone with feelings might have been able to coach Katniss into making that relationship a little more believable.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

But does Effie really have feelings? Because like she's very like robotic and focused on in the Capitol, this is what we do. Like, here's here's the um the program. Yeah. The itinerary. We gotta be yeah, and and she's just so flustered over any little thing. They stopped for an hour to get fuel, and she's like, Oh, this changes our plans. Oh, now I gotta read it, you know. So, like, I don't think she she connects with humans the the way that humans should be connecting with humans.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Do you think Effie knows the Pita and Katniss aren't in love?

SPEAKER_02 16:07

I don't know, I don't think she does.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

Do you she believe that she fully thinks that they're in love with each other? So if she believes that lie when it's so plain in her face, especially when they get on the train and they're not talking to each other anymore, like it's very hot and cold in front of people.

Jessica Mary 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

And she still believes that lie. I don't know. I I wouldn't have told her.

Jessica Mary 16:29

I mean, Effie's journey through the series is one of unlearning. So I feel like it's important to have told her at some point and not kept the seriousness of what was going on, or even not even having attempted to tell her was the wrong choice.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

This is really hard because, like, yeah, you should tell her, but also at the same time, like, I feel like she's one of those people where, like, if you told her the gravity of everything going on, right? I feel like she would annoy Katniss even more and be like on her tail 24-7, making sure she's not making a mistake, she's she's doing this, she's doing that.

Jessica Mary 17:07

And I think I I wouldn't want someone like that on my back, you know, like even though the outcome of that is something that Katniss would need to survive and keep loved ones safe.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

I think like what Katie's saying is like that would like personally, that would piss me off more. Like, I would struggle to then get in that headspace because, like, yo, get off my back. Like, I was doing whatever. And I also think that Effie wouldn't be able to act like everything is fine. She would, I feel like she would almost be the type to be like, everything is fine, everything is fine. Do you see? Everything is fine. Do you see? Do you see? Do you see? It's all fine. Ha ha, nothing's the problem. And everyone around would be like, What the frick?

Jessica Mary 17:51

I do agree with that. Effie is the epitome of a cropped frame in TV where we just show exactly what we want to show. Yeah. I do agree with that. She wouldn't be able to.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

I still feel like she should know. But she does find out later. Well, yeah. I mean should she know yes, not though at what point you tell her. From my memory, she doesn't actually find out until they drag her to spoiler alert, District 13. Books have been out for 20 years. I'm just letting everyone go. Right? Like, she's shocked when she ends up there.

Jessica Mary 18:25

Yeah. So she's shocked it's there. She's shocked that she's there. She's shocked they don't have any fashion. Anyway. Anywho. Alright, so there's two things that happen after that. One we talked about earlier, where PETA is like, and you only kissed Gail once, which, like, priorities, man. But they also start talking about the games, and PETA is actively painting his trauma, and he's like, These are my paintings, and Cadassus is like, I hate them. Understandably. Yeah, uh, I'm actively trying to forget these things, and you're like, look how beautifully I captured everyone's death in oil paintings. And ultimately, at the end of that, she's like, I mean, they're fantastic, they're very well painted, but I fucking hate them. I don't need to be remembering this. And around then is also a talk of whether or not Heymanch and Katniss had a system for the games. And he's like, Did he like add you on for things? And her response is like, no, not officially. I just could tell what he wanted me to do by what he sent or didn't send. And I just kind of like my note in my Kindle is just like, girl, that's a system. Like, whether or not you came up with it beforehand, that is a system that you came to understand.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

Well, and he like left her notes with the the broth and stuff. Like, you call that a kiss? I don't know.

Jessica Mary 19:44

Yeah, apply liberally, more to come, etc. Like, yeah, that's a system. Yeah. Yeah. When I got into like my 20s, I my high I got really high blood pressure, and I went to my mom and I was like, oh, does that run in our family? She's like, Oh, I don't think we have a family history of it. I have it, your grandma had it, your great grandma had it, but I don't think that that's a family history. And it's the same reaction I had here with that's the very definition of what I just asked you.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

But but sometimes people don't see things for what they are when they're right in front of their face. And I think she was kind of lying to him to make him feel better too. Because I'm pretty sure she does say in book one, we have a system worked out.

Jessica Mary 20:23

Yeah, she figures it out. She's like halfway through the woods and she's like, okay, so he's not sending me water because I'm near water, so I have to keep going. Or he gave me this because I did X. Like she figures it out pretty quickly and labels it a system.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Yeah. So I think she's just saying that as well to like spare Pita's feelings. Yeah. We didn't know, we didn't have a system.

Jessica Mary 20:47

We didn't write it down, sort of.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

Um what do we think of uh President Snow showing up?

Jessica Mary 20:54

That has always given me the creeps as it is supposed to do. Right. Uh he's just in her house. When he shows up, it is unannounced. And I do enjoy a Frank villain, right? He's he's not coming here to be like, oh, we're gonna talk in metaphor. He's just like, let's not lie to each other. Um, I know that you don't love him. And I saw you kissing another boy. And if you don't convince everybody, I'm just going to murder everyone you love. Straight to the point.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

I also really enjoy how he's just like, I like how your mom gave me tea and cookies because everyone doesn't think I need to eat, but I do.

Jessica Mary 21:33

There's also, like, when he leaves, uh, and she's like, Oh my god, was the scent of blood on his breath? She immediately has the image of him with a teacup full of blood and a cookie that he's dipping into it coming out red and covered in blood. That's so great. I love that. However, you want to cope, baby. I'm I'm there with you.

SPEAKER_04 21:54

Yeah.

Jessica Mary 21:54

But I I do think that that spreads the scope of what we. Thought we knew was being watched because in the first books they're outside the fence, and so they're like, okay, they're obviously not watching us out here, and they talk about a lot of very rebellious things. Gail specifically is like, fuck the capital, fuck the police, fuck the everything. And now you know that that's all being watched.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

We know he's watching Katniss. We know he's like keeping his eye on everything, but does he not watch his own people? Because the person who is now in charge of the of the games itself, right? Because Seneca Crane Seneca Crane is dead.

Jessica Mary 22:34

Is in hell him in his perfectly shaped beard. Right. And this this other guy was Plutarch Heavensby.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

He's showing Katniss the watch, right? And this is another example of how Katniss is so fucking mocking J on it. And he presses the face and like the hologram of the mocking jay comes up. And like, so we know he's on the rebellion side, right? Because the simple is the mocking jay, it's your pin, whatever. And he's just like, he tells her it's one of a kind, I had it made, and she's like, um, oh yeah, he he doesn't want anyone to steal the concept design and blah blah blah. It's like, no, he's telling you he's on your side. And then my thought is like, she doesn't know, yeah, she doesn't know about the rebellion and and her being used as a symbol. But at the same time, it's like, why is snow watching Katniss so hard, but not these people? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Because they haven't given him reason to yet, maybe.

Jessica Mary 23:29

Yeah. Narratively, his focus has to be on the main character, but also realistically, he knows that she and Pita are a symbol of hope. And he very specifically thinks that you know, like hope is dangerous. I want to remain in control. You can only have a little bit of hope because too much hope, and you'll be like, oh, well, now I can have this uprising because look what happened. You know, they stood up to the capital. There's there's hope for us, there's hope for more of us. Maybe next year we can get more victors in the games and and other things like that. And so he actively is attempting to make that conform into his world to retain that control, but also kind of like throwing fodder onto the fire. And of course, we know from the back copy of the book, they're gonna go back into the games. That's just that's not a spoiler. Spoiler. Sorry. The book has been out for 20 years. Now, his hubris ultimately, you know, hubris brings down almost every villain these days. But in trying to squash something, he's pushing this system to the limit. Where if he just let this go.

SPEAKER_03 24:39

They can't let anything go.

Jessica Mary 24:40

If he let it go, and Pita and Katniss were like, you know what? We're not in love, we figured it out, and they just kind of like went their victor ways. I don't think it would have the same impact on the country as seeing them go through each of these districts and have empathy for the children that are also dead, and to show that they are together because them being together is them together against the capital.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

But they're following tradition when they go through all the districts and stuff.

Jessica Mary 25:13

They are, but I think district eleven shows that they aren't, right? Because they both do things that no victor has done before. Where she's like, thank you for your children and your sacrifice and your bread and pita's, like, here's money and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Sorry, I just meant like them being in front of people is something that all the other victors have to do. And then sorry, one real quick thing with the the watch. She does mention, Katniss does mention before that she sees mocking jays everywhere in the Capitol. Yes. So I could see then her dismissing it a little bit because it's become like a fashion thing. Yeah. But yeah, he does do it very slyly.

Jessica Mary 25:56

Is it is it that sly? Because he's kind of like, look at my glow in the dark watch. Do you like the mocking jay on it? I do agree that, you know, it's a fashion statement at this point, and she can obviously write it off, but I don't think that he's doing it subtly, which brings me back to Katie's point.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

The face of the clock isn't the mocking jay. He has to touch it for it to show up.

Jessica Mary 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

So it is kind of subtly, you know, it is kind of on the down low.

Jessica Mary 26:22

I feel like it would be on the down low if they weren't like in the center of a party while doing it.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

But they're dancing like in a corner.

Jessica Mary 26:32

If they had gone to a corner, if they had gone to a table that was kind of blacked out or something, and he was like, hey, here is the secret rebellion symbol.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

But they're doing it on like a busy dance floor where no none sorry, where no one else is paying attention to them.

Jessica Mary 26:50

Which then is also really confusing because President Snow is like everywhere. I don't know. Kind of it comes back to what Katie's saying. Is he just not watching these other people that are close to him?

SPEAKER_03 27:01

Well, there's a reason why he gave what's his name, Plutarch, why he gave him the game master spot in the first place. That's how much he trusts him.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:12

And he's one of the guys that she embarrassed most when she shot that apple through the pig's mouth. Right. He would be like, oh, he's the guy that fell in the punch. He probably has the most vendetta against her. But I think if he had any sort of inkling towards him being not a good guy, he wouldn't have given him that post.

Jessica Mary 27:34

He should mistrust him just a little bit because he also trusted Seneca Crane. Not that, not that Seneca betrayed him, but he ultimately failed him. Yeah. Right. And I feel like he would be watching him to be like, okay, are you talking to those two? Because I don't want you getting any ideas that we're gonna have another two victors in this game.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

But at the same time, I do feel like Katniss is kind of a distraction right now. And he's kind of got his entire focus on her and diminishing her threat. And so I think it makes it easier for the other people to kind of fly under the radar a little bit. Especially Plutarch, because like even further on and stuff, he uses her as a distraction. I mean, which we find out in the movies because we don't actually hear those conversations, but um, spoiler. I want to know how early on this like mocking Jace symbol became a symbol of the rebellion, or that people really latched onto it.

Jessica Mary 28:39

Yeah, she says something in there about it coming to be where she's like they they underestimated its desire to thrive or to live, and you know, up it's set in comparison to the rebellion and to the districts, and I agree, I would really love to know when this specific symbol became the symbol.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

No, because it it the whole lore of it. Yeah, because of the uh mutation that basically failed the capital, and then it mated with the the mocking bird and became the mocking jay, and they had like, you know, yeah offspring and a new species of bird, and then they just left them to die and they didn't. Yeah. That's true.

Jessica Mary 29:32

I know we've talked about it in earlier episodes, but like this is part of what I mean where I I want more books in this series because I want to see this rebellion come to fruition because we like we see it when it explodes and it happens, but I want to see how this gets organized, how this flies under the radar so well for what are we up to? The 75th game? 75 years? A rebellion flies under the radar from the last failed rebellion?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Like, I want to know how that worked and how that happened, and how it got to the capital and why people in the capital are here for the rebellion.

Jessica Mary 30:06

Yeah, because we do eventually learn that we have friends in the capital. Like, at what point did they turn over and be like, oh hey, what we're doing is wrong. It just yeah. I want to know more.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Especially because we don't know if certain people are born into the capital or got invited to the capital for some reason and stayed there. We don't know that yet. Right.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

Stop it.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

But uh I mean like like like Plutarch, you know what I'm saying?

Jessica Mary 30:36

Yeah, we don't we don't know who bought their way in, who was born in, or anything.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Right. So why is Plutarch part of the rebellion? Like what's his story? Why is he a part of the rebellion?

Jessica Mary 30:45

You know, like what made him empathetic toward it, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

There's so much going on in the story that there is a lot of material to work with that, like you said, that people want to know, people want to figure out and find out. I don't think it would be like, oh, another book, you know, like oh, she's just trying to make money, but like there's so many people that that could have so many different backgrounds that contribute to the story.

Jessica Mary 31:12

Yeah, now I really want a Plutarch Heavensby book. Thanks for that. Like what led you to the rebellion. Um, so they're at the showcase. This like big feast for the victors specifically. This is one of my favorite scenes in that it kind of comes to a head in this first part. One, this is where Snow is like, uh, you did not convince me, and now everybody's gonna get married, at which point my notes are just mowage. Mowage is what brings us together today. But she further has to play this giddy little schoolgirl when he's like, Oh, we should throw them a wedding. And she's like, ha ha, if only my mother would let me, you'd have to pass a law. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. And he's like And he's like I can do that. Yeah, I can do that. You're gonna get married, the end. But there is the drink scene, yeah, when they are eating everybody's gorging, and they're like, Oh, I couldn't eat another bite. Here, drink this, and it's specifically a tonic to make them throw up. And I feel like of the many things we see of like the pure decadence and excess of the capital, this scene for me, I think, shows it perfectly. They're not wasting food, they're partially digesting food, they're getting full over and over and over and over again, and just purging it so that they can have more of it. While you know, Katniss immediately starts telling stories of the emaciated children that are literally dying in her district. I feel like that that is the capital's identity to a T.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Yeah. And it's the commentary on the upper class. Yeah. Not just in this book, but you know, in in real life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

Yeah. No, that was definitely not fun to read again, knowing that it already happened. I'm like, oh, I hate this part every time. I hate thinking about it. Even when like I go to a party where there's like a big spread, sometimes it just like pops into my mind. You know what I mean? Like you go to a big buffet and you're like, where does the rest of the food go? Because you never see an empty plate at a buffet. Anyway, not to be super morbid, but I mean, we're talking hunger games.

Jessica Mary 33:35

I don't feel like there's a way to have this discussion and not be morbid. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

To some degree. I guess one thing that I kind of wanted to bring up. I don't know if we kind of already covered this, but when tatness and PETA first see each other and they do that like weird run into the snow thing and they like fall over.

Jessica Mary 33:56

The totally overacted.

SPEAKER_03 33:58

Ha ha ha ha! I love you. I'm ling-ling. But like in the book, she's like, we fall into the snow, me on top of him. That's where we have our first kiss. I can feel the steadiness that PETA brings to everything, and I know I'm not alone. As badly as I've hurt him, he won't expose me in front of the cameras, won't condemn me with half-hearted kisses. He's still looking out for me. And in my head, I'm just like, God, you're a selfish bitch. Like, oh, it's right there. Like this man is trying to love and protect you, and that's all you care about. Look, she knows, okay? And PETA knows what he is to her as well. I know, but a part of me wishes she didn't immediately go to like, he's so strong for me. I wish there was a part where she was like, I know I have to be strong for him too. But that's net that's not a thought that ever crosses her mind.

Jessica Mary 34:57

Or at least the acknowledgement that she is not returning that same level of strength.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

Yeah. Like, it must be so hard for him when I'm so inconsistent and flighty, yet he's always her rock. Yeah. It's a little selfish.

Jessica Mary 35:16

A little selfish. I think don't love that. One of the parts one of the parts that pisses me off the most is when she goes to meet Gail knowing that she's being watched. Like, you already have the confirmation. Yeah, with the the lake and the house there, and she like leaves gloves for him and stuff. And she's literally just shown like footage of her doing this, so she knows that she's being watched. Snow absolutely told her, I know about the kiss, which was really weird because like she's like 16 and he's like, Oh, I know. And then she goes out and does it. And it's like the smart thing to do would have been not to have any further contact with Gail. I feel like inviting him out there, even if it was to be like, hey, we should bounce, was risking his life.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

Yeah. At first I thought it was a good idea when she was like, I hadn't been out there in so long. And then she starts talking about how she had been out there twice in this time. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, so if they've been watching you and you've been there twice, they know about it. And gone swimming, then they know about this place, and you haven't walked far enough. Nor do you think they would really let you walk any further. Right? I don't know. I agree. At the same time, she does like try to get him to run away. So when else is she gonna do it? Maybe in front of a really loud thing. Hey, can I come and do a bring your kid to work day in the coal mine so I can talk to you?

Jessica Mary 36:47

Can I um bring our families to the coal mines? No, no, no, it's a tradition, I swear. I swear. You'll see us again, yes, real soon. Yeah. I just feel like it's weird that the first thing on Katniss's list of identity is that she is the protector of those she loves. And her motivation is to protect those she loves. And so to have this moment where she's like, hey, I love you, so I'm gonna put your life at risk. Just like one more time. It'll be fine. Uh, and also talk about your family, because even running away, even if it was just the two families, that's still a huge risk to them. Well, especially with those young kids and stuff. And she knows that it's not likely that they would get away. Like, she's actively seen what happens when you do that. That's the story of the Avox girl, is that she and her presumed lover were running away from the Capitol and they got caught.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Yeah. What I really don't like about Katniss's naivete is that she realizes that the peacekeepers in District 12 aren't as horrible as those in District 11. Yes. But then she wonders who snitched on her about um, I guess the the kiss or that she's been out hunting or or whatever, right? Yeah. There's the part where they're like, I don't know how he knows about that someone wants to snitch. And I'm like, why do you trust these people? They are literally there to keep you guys like in check. That they're paid by the capital. Yeah. That's like an inmate being friends with like a security guard out of prison, which we know it happens, but at the same time, the inmates are aware that at some point the security guard can can betray them, can hurt them, whatever, because you know, that's their job. Their job is to keep them in line.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

That's like the curse of familiarity, though. Yeah.

Jessica Mary 38:50

That also brings up the mayor, right? At at the party at the mayor's house, when she gets back, she sees the uh update on district eight on the TV. And so we learn that, you know, the mayor of District 12 absolutely knows about the uprisings happening in the other districts. The one in District 8 specifically has been raised to a level 3, and they are no longer producing textiles. So, like that whole district has just gotten shut down. And then she walks out like, hey, uh, wow, what's a TV? I don't know. I have to go and just kind of bounces. What do you think is the payoff here? Because the mayor is district, right? He's he's born and raised in the district, he's not part of the capital, but uh in a way he is because he's on capital payroll. Like, what is his trade-off for working with them? Working with being mayor, like being mayor of district 12, though? Like, what does that really get you?

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Yeah, but get it, but like he's got certain freedoms. He probably has enough food, he's got that nice house, he's got you know, nice clothes.

SPEAKER_03 39:53

Yeah, you kind of have to look out for yourself, yeah. Yeah, his family's okay. I'm sure his his daughter. She doesn't have to put her name in more than once, yeah. Right. If at all. If at all. No, she does have to put her name in. It's talked about in book one. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

Yeah, she may have to put her name in, right? You know, so I mean uh working with them, they get, you know, some pretty nice perks.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Yeah. Do we learn if that TV was left on on purpose for her to see?

Jessica Mary 40:28

Not in this section, at least. But do you think it was?

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Yeah.

Jessica Mary 40:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

It's like to me, there's more connection between the mare and the rebellion in the books than what is shown in the movies with Madge, her friend, giving her the pin. Because I'm pretty sure the mare is killed in book two or three. In book two or three, he's he's murdered.

Jessica Mary 40:55

I don't remember if he is murdered. Yeah, I guess we're gonna find out. Yeah, I remember some other characters who are murdered, and I'm not looking forward to that scene because that scene's fucking heart-wrenching. But I think this also comes back to like what we were saying earlier, that there's so much involved in getting this rebellion up and running. I really truly want other books that give us that, even if it is a small glimpse. Like, I know you get meah when I talk about sunrise, but we get small glimpses about the rebellion in Sunrise on the Reaping. We get small glimpses about it in Ballad of Song, Birds and Snakes. I wish that we had more, and not just in the sense of like what ultimately leads to this big rebellion, but like how do these people come together? They're literally locked out in sections. That was my major question.

SPEAKER_03 41:47

Like, how do the districts coordinate? What's yeah, who goes in between? How do they get there? Yeah, because the only people that are going between districts are victors on their little peacekeepers, potentially peacekeepers, and the tributes. Yeah, and that and the tributes. So they'd almost have to use the victors as or like servants for the victors as the go-betweens.

Jessica Mary 42:17

I think hawks might see less than what they get to watch of them from the Capitol for quote unquote security reasons. So how do they get these notes across? How how do they get little things slid under plates to be like meet me at midnight? Or here's a special bird pin that says that I'm on your side. How do we know that that's the one, that's the symbol that we're using? At what point did we have the rebellion meeting to like talk about our brand?

SPEAKER_03 42:49

Yeah, but I think that's just like a natural thing that kind of happens with her having the mocking j pin, you know what I mean? Like, like I don't know how other symbols become symbols of a certain thing. Like, I don't know how many PR meetings happened over, like, what's what's a symbol in our day that like wasn't planned on purpose? Ten minutes of silence later.

Jessica Mary 43:15

Um, I'm trying to think of one too. Like, outside of memes, I can't really think of something, right? We we have different frogs for bad moods, and there was a whole period where we just had like really poorly drawn faces that were for like moods and feelings and things, very much like you know, Picard on the planet, his arms wide, kind of feeling. Yeah, I can't think of something that wasn't deliberately planned, and I'm surrounded right now by marketing material.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

Literally, I'm like, it's not the rainbow for gay that was planned, it's not like the cancer ribbons stuff, those are all planned. Because that was planned. I don't know, can you guys think? Of any that were like planned. I don't know how we got here, but it was you.

Jessica Mary 44:06

You did it. You were like, is there any symbol that was unplanned? I can't like even flowers kind of have a planned definition to them.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Yeah, I don't know. Like something that started as I would even say like a fan thing that turned into a legit thing. There's gotta be something in Supernatural.

Jessica Mary 44:25

The Helix fossil from Twitch Plays Pokemon?

SPEAKER_03 44:29

That is so specific.

Jessica Mary 44:31

Uh is yeah, so there was Twitch Plays Pokemon, and everybody would vote in the chat about which way they were going, and they almost tossed out a Helix fossil, which is the only way to get a certain Pokemon. And so it just kind of became like all glory to the Helix because it survived. That's probably the closest I can think of to a weird fan symbol that wasn't planned to be like that.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Like I know I've seen interviews where it was like, yeah, the fans just ran with this, so then we did too. Anyway, I want to know the PR meeting as well. I mean, I obviously it's like Plutarch, Hamish was there. When we get to District 13, we find out.

Jessica Mary 45:13

But like more than Plutarch had to be involved in the Capitol. Like, there's no way that it was just this one capital dude and nobody else.

SPEAKER_03 45:24

Yeah. Just one cat. Well, I think because Cinna's involved.

Jessica Mary 45:30

Right, so Cinn Cinna would be involved, Plutarch's involved, Effie becomes involved, but I don't think that she is at the very least knowingly involved leading up to those events.

SPEAKER_03 45:40

No, she's not because she gets she's like upset that they brought her to District 13 and sh like Yeah, it does it doesn't jive with her complexion. Yeah, I remember her being like, You should have just left me in the Capitol. Like, fair. I don't know. I wish there was m maybe I'm just making it up, but I wish there was more to the Madge and the Mare being a part of it.

Jessica Mary 46:04

Yeah. At least that we get to see. That would be really nice. Yeah. Oh, the last thing that I wanted to say about uh Gail being a piece of shit. Uh is when he gives her back the gloves and he's like, I don't want anything on the ground. When he had he tosses them on the ground and he's like, I don't want anything made in the Capitol. And he's like giving her this look and she interprets it as was I made in the Capitol. That was a stretch. That was a stretchy stretch for me. I don't think that it was a stretch.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Okay.

Jessica Mary 46:37

I don't think Katniss herself was made in the Capitol, but I think Katniss the Victor was made in the Capitol. Because Katniss herself is like, I can't be bothered with romance because I've got mouths to feed and people to roll that rely on me, and also the world is on fire, and I just don't have the mental capacity for it. But Katniss the Victor is, oh my god, we had to go home together. I love him so much. Oh, you have to pass a law to get me married. My mother would never allow it. Like, they're two different entities. So, in a sense, part of Katniss was made in the Capitol. Also, there was a really weird line. Well, it wasn't weird, we kind of already knew this, but there was a line when the stylist team shows up, and they're talking about giving her like breast augmentation. You know, when she's older.

unknown 47:26

When she's old.

SPEAKER_03 47:27

Yeah, they use they're like the enhancements.

Jessica Mary 47:30

Yeah, the enhancements. You'll look so much better. Uh, but there's a line in there that most of the boys got to keep their body hair, and none of the girls did. Mm-hmm. When they went in. Yeah. Oh, and then we end uh Gail apparently went gung-ho into town and now he is uh tied up to a pole getting whipped.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

I don't know if he went gung-ho into town, but he uh he was just caught with the grouse or whatever she had caught in his hand.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Yeah, for illegal hunting.

Jessica Mary 47:56

So I feel like he would have gone gung-ho. One, he was really mad when he left the cabin, and two, he knows better about sneaking back in.

SPEAKER_03 48:05

But you're so used to doing it all the time. He didn't know that those extra peacekeepers were gonna be there.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Yeah. There was a peacekeeper that they never saw before.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

So even if he had gone in gung-ho, what do you okay, what do you mean by gung-ho?

Jessica Mary 48:18

That he was just like really angry, making a lot of noise, maybe mumbling to himself about what a piece of shit Katniss is.

SPEAKER_02 48:27

I don't think that's the case. I think that because of Katniss and the rebellion and everything, they send in extra peacekeepers, right? Because all the other peacekeepers wouldn't have flagged him for that, wouldn't have bought it from him.

Jessica Mary 48:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Or they would have bought it from him, right? So, like, again, like their peacekeepers are a little bit more on the nicer side, yeah, than than the others. But this guy who is new was just probably saw him and was just like, uh-uh. Nope. I know you're the guy close to Katniss. I know we're trying to, you know, he's being paid by snow, you know? And so he's like, We're gonna teach Katniss a lesson, and that means we have to teach you a lesson.

Jessica Mary 49:12

Well then, in that note, do you think that the extra peacekeepers were specifically educated about Katniss and her loved ones so that they could keep an extra eye on them?

SPEAKER_03 49:22

Oh, 100%.

Jessica Mary 49:23

Yes. They probably had a full dossier on it. I have nothing else to add except that I hate Gale. Gail force windbag.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

So, yeah, I don't know. I'm like understanding of it, I guess. I understand where his anger and stuff comes from, because he just they they thought they had more time and then they didn't.

Jessica Mary 49:46

I also understand, like he's you know, he's victim of a totalitarian regime, of course. I understand where that anger is coming from. But I think Gail's anger is particularly reckless, and he doesn't care who gets in the way. Like, all death is justified if we manage to get out of it, as opposed to trying to save as many people as possible. Yeah. Join us next week for chapters eight through twenty-one. I'm awake.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

Eight through twenty-one. That seems like a big chunk.

Jessica Mary 50:22

Eight through fourteen. There you go. I can mask. Literally, I was like, that's a lot. It's nine o'clock here on the East Coast, and I am exhausted. I did not take a nap today. I really did. You pulled on all day or I did. I got up at like 10 o'clock. It was terrible.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

You need a sticker for being an adult?

Jessica Mary 50:45

Yes, I want a sticker.

Outro 50:47

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